About this episode: “Sometimes I ignore my questions, and I just take it for what it is.” says Eri, a Japanese woman with an international mindset. In this episode, we explore the Japanese conformity and collectivist culture. First, Japanese individuals explain why they follow the crowd and then we hear what it’s like to navigate Japan from the expats’ perspective.

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Transcript

INTRO

Eri: Sometimes I ignore my questions, and I just take it for what it is.

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores the Japanese group-oriented mindset and collectivist culture.   

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Eri is Japanese. She grew up in South Korea, Malaysia and Japan and she’s currently a master’s student studying applied cultural analysis in Denmark. She also studied abroad for a year in San Diego as part of her Bachelor’s. 

I asked what her motivation was to study abroad. To be honest, I expected her answer to be something like “I wanted to live overseas” or “for the experience”. And of course that’s definitely part of it, but there was more to it. 

She said that she wanted to study abroad for academic empowerment. 

It happened during her first year at her Japanese university. She took many classes that happened to have a lot of foreign exchange students as her classmates. 

Eri: I noticed a significant difference between my academic level. And also being critical or… through discussions I found a lot of different kinds of skill sets that a lot of the international students had that I don’t have. 

Kaho Koda: The foreign exchange students had opinions. They had questions. And they didn’t shy away from discussions. This was very new to her. She told me that the questions that her international students asked in class were just so eye opening. The attention to detail. The sensitivity towards what they don’t understand and then responding to it. 

I shared a similar experience.

When I moved to Montreal, Canada at age 16, I was shocked at how all of the students participated in class. When teachers asked questions, the students actually responded. And students wanted to participate.

In my Japanese high school not many participated. I remember the teacher would have to call on a student to answer the question. Hands were rarely raised. Students were rather reluctant to answer the question. 

Back in Japan, I was used to being on the receiving end of knowledge. The teacher would talk in front of the chalkboard and we would take notes. And looking back now, there was not really an opportunity to have discussions in class. It was minimal. No research projects. The Japanese education system encouraged the abundance of knowledge and not much emphasis on critical thinking. 

What does secondary school education in Japan look like from the western point of view? 

Michael, an English teacher from the US, spoke about his culture shock while teaching in a Japanese middle school. He’s been teaching English in Japan for roughly five years now. 

His school was part of a contest working with schools from other countries. Australia and Taiwan, to be precise. And his colleague showed Michael a survey that he made for the Australian and Taiwanese students to fill out. 

Michael: Japanese students surprisingly don’t really learn computer technology until high school so they’re kind of behind when it comes to those kinds of skills. And he was making a survey that he was gonna give to the other schools. And I read over it. It was so… I don’t even know what the right word is. I feel like, as a westerner, if I got this, I would be kind of be like “Is this real? Are you serious?” 

Because they were questions like “have you ever used data before? Have you ever used data to do a project?”, which most people in the west, we do do a lot of research projects. And you know I think that was a big culture shock for me to find out how it’s really missing some of those key things. These are things that even transcend culture. Like critical thinking. Being able to do research. There were these things that I was like “wow, you really don’t learn these things”.  

Kaho Koda: He found out later that students learn how to conduct research in university. He thinks that’s quite late. Referring to research and critical thinking, he said, “even a middle school student should be learning these skills”. 

Let’s go back to Eri’s story. 

After she told me about how amazed she was with international students having and stating their own opinions in class, she moved on to how Japanese people are. 

Eri: Asking questions that’s something that… When I’m speaking to Japanese people, like even my Japanese friends, even if they don’t understand something, they won’t ask questions about it like “Oh what is this?”

Kaho Koda: According to Eri, people don’t ask questions in Japan. Whether it’s academic or a casual conversation with friends, asking a question is not really a common behaviour. She said that if someone is talking, a Japanese person won’t interrupt or ask questions even if something is unclear. 

That’s also what Eri used to do before she noticed she was doing it herself. Eri mentioned that her then unconscious behaviour of not asking questions affected her romantic relationship as well. 

Her boyfriend is Dutch. There were some cultural clashes at the beginning of the relationship because Dutch people are very very direct. I can relate. My partner is Dutch and I currently live in the Netherlands – it was a culture shock for me as well. Dutch people are the opposite of Japanese people when it comes to communication. The Japanese roundabout way of conversation, avoiding directness, is just so foreign to the Dutch. 

Eri said that her Dutch boyfriend always made it clear what he wanted to say or what he meant. He was direct and he asked questions without any hesitation. And from her Japanese point of view, it was quite surprising. 

Eri: Even within our relationship, at the very start, I didn’t stop him in the middle of the conversation and ask him what he meant or what does this word mean? What is this? Because in Japan we don’t really do that. 90% of the environment that I surround myself with in Japan, is Japanese so I don’t do that so it’s not just in my habit. 

Kaho Koda: Not asking questions – this also applies in the workplace. She once went into a job interview and when she asked a question to the interviewer, he said that it was his first time he was asked this specific question and that he didn’t know how to answer it. And that was the end of it. The Interviewer never responded to her question.

Eri: We’re very much told to accept the role that you’re given. I think there’s less questioning going on in the country. I feel very much that I’m not critical enough or I’m not asking enough questions. Or sometimes I ignore my questions. And I just take it for what it is. 

Kaho Koda: In Japan, maintaining social harmony is key. We’ve been exploring that concept this season. You heard me talk about 協調性, being harmonious, multiple times. On the flip side of maintaining social harmony is avoiding conflict. Don’t be assertive. Don’t ask questions. Conform to what others say. Conform to the group. 

Today I want to discuss conformity. How the Japanese follow the crowd. The majority. The norm. First, let’s look at Japanese individuals’ opinions on conformity, and later, we’ll explore what it’s like for internationals to navigate the harmonious Japanese society. 

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: Okay, Let’s start by looking at how the Japanese view themselves. 

When I interviewed Japanese people, I made sure to ask this question “What does it mean to be Japanese?”. And this was the response I received from Japanese individuals. 

Misora: 自分を蔑む人が多いかな？って。 

Kaho Koda: Misora said that Japanese people put themselves down to bring up others.  

You might be confused. I’ll walk you through an example. 

Let’s say someone compliments you and your achievement, for example, “Wow! Your performance was beautiful! You did great”. The western response is “Thank you”. You say thanks to the praise. You appreciate them. Quite Straightforward, right? 

The Japanese response is more like「いえいえ、そんなことないです」which translates to “No, no, no, no, not really.” 

When someone is praising you, you don’t say ‘thanks’ in Japanese. Because that would mean that you also think that you performed beautifully. The Japanese virtue is to not accept the praise and bring yourself down instead by saying “No, I wasn’t good enough”. Make a self-deprecating remark. Out of respect to the person who praised you. 

That’s what Misora means. “Japanese people put themselves down to bring up the other”. 

In addition, she added that saying “no” to someone is impolite. At the root of that thought process is again, respect. Japanese people think “Am I making the other person uncomfortable by saying no? Am I gonna bother the other person?” 「迷惑をかけない」”Don’t bother other people” is a Japanese instinct. 

Whether it’s for work, romance, or just daily interactions, the virtue is to conform to others. Agree to what others say so that you don’t disrespect them. 

Going back to our main story, what Eri said, “Japanese people don’t ask questions”. Interrupting someone and asking them to elaborate and clarify can be rude. So let’s listen first. And if the conversation takes a turn and moves onto a different topic, just leave it. 

Chikako also spoke about how Japanese people conform to others. We discussed the homogenous group-oriented mindset in detail. Chikako was born in Amsterdam and grew up in Tokyo. She’s half Japanese and half Dutch. She’s in her mid-twenties. She said she was always part of the group, the majority, the norm. And that she unknowingly participated in collective behaviour all her life. She never questioned her actions. How she conformed to the group. 

Chikako: あのー日本の集団の動きってめっちゃ洗練されてて。。

Kaho Koda: She said, “The Japanese group-oriented mindset is so refined that even when you’re in the group, you aren’t aware of it. You unconsciously adjust your behaviour to match others around you – that’s the magic rule.”   

Again, Japan is a collectivist culture. Community is more important than the individual. It’s so easy to belong to a community in Japanese society. Here’s one example. 

Unlike North America, Japan starts the new academic calendar in April. Students from daycare, kindergarten, elementary school, to university, they all start a new grade in April – cherry blossom season. It’s a beautiful time of the year. And the end of the academic calendar, graduation season, is in March. 

Elementary school is a total of six years. Middle school, three years. High school, three years. And University, four years. 

That’s the standard. The norm. And everyone in your grade was born in the same year as you. It’s very rare to skip a grade in Japan.

And this is the important part. In your third year of university, you attend job fairs and go through job interviews. The idea is to have a job waiting for you before graduation. Once all of the students graduate in March, all newly graduates start their permanent salaried jobs on April 1st. 

It’s a big day, April 1st. A new beginning for everybody! If you’re a student, you move up a grade. The media features the 新社会人, meaning, the new members of society, on the news. Musicians and bands release new songs featuring さくら, cherry blossoms in their lyrics. It symbolizes new beginnings and hope. 

And since the 新社会人, the new members of society, are starting on the exact same day, they all go through training together, as a group. You train together and then start working together as a group. There are get-togethers and after work drink events that you attend. And after a year of working in the company, when the next April approaches, you’re in your second year of 社会人, a member of society. And the next 新社会人, the new members of society, enter the company. Feels a bit like an extension of school, doesn’t it?

Japanese people are reminded that they are active members of society. And at the same time, they belong to this group. The community.  

Sanhi, a Korean woman who’s lived in Japan most of her life, also agrees: Japanese people conform to the environment, what the group wants. 

Sanhi:日本のそういう考え方に違和感を持ちつつも。。。

Kaho Koda: She said that sometimes the group-oriented mindset bothers her too. But having lived in Japan for more than 20 years now, that’s also become her norm. She also doesn’t mind adjusting her behaviour to maintain the group harmony. She said it’s part of her personality. 

Sanhi’s impression is that when someone is not too fond of adjusting their behaviour to match the group, to maintain the group harmony, that’s when they get uncomfortable living in Japan. Ultimately, they’ll leave. She has a close Japanese friend who left Japan because of this reason. 

Sanhi doesn’t know if she’ll live in Japan forever. But for now, it’s her home. It’s easy to live. Safe. Comfortable. 

The Japanese put themselves down to bring up others, out of respect. And since it’s rude to interrupt, they won’t ask questions. They’ll conform to keep the social harmony. Some Japanese find conformity to be comforting and some might leave because they question it… 

Next up: how do the internationals navigate Japan? 

Right after the break. 

Hi guys, writer and host, Kaho here. Thanks for listening to episode 6 of Controversial Japan! This episode is actually the last episode of the season. I know, I’m sad too. Are you interested in season 2? If so, please help us out by purchasing our merch. When you buy a cute totebag or a sweater, we get to continue producing more episodes for you to enjoy. Go to shop.humanburrito.com  And thanks for your support! 

INTERNATIONAL’S EXPERIENCE

Kaho Koda: We explored how the Japanese view the group-oriented mindset and collectivist culture. What’s the experience like for internationals? 

I spoke with Hanna. Hanna is originally from Budapest, Hungary and she currently lives in Germany. She told me about the year she studied abroad in Hiroshima, Japan. She attended a Japanese all girls’ high school. It was a private school with a cute uniform and everything. Lots of rules. It was very strict. But she kept an open mind because she knew it was only for a year. 

I asked her to list some of the rules that she remembered. 

If you have long hair, you have to have it up in a ponytail or in braids. Hair ties need to be black or grey. Of course, no make up. No piercings – Hanna had pierced ears, so she was not allowed to wear earrings to school. 

This is quite standard in a Japanese private school. Some public schools have this kind of strict rule as well. Some schools are a bit more relaxed… It depends. 

Hanna: Nails had to be cut short. Really short. So like not daily, that would be a bit crazy but, maybe not crazy, but time consuming. Once in a while they would do routine checks…

Kaho Koda: This happened the first week she was there. She had 2 long nails. The teacher made her and the others who failed the inspection to cut their nails in the middle of the room. They had to surround a garbage bin and cut their nails in front of the other students who passed the inspection. She said that it was weirdly humiliating. That event was an introduction to school regulations for her in the mini society: school. 

There were so many rules that she had to learn and follow. Not just in school, but also out in public. The Japanese norm. I asked her what that was like for her. 

Hanna: I felt like I could get away with things…

Kaho Koda: The recording turned out to be a little muffled, so I’m going to read out loud what she said. 

“I felt like I could get away with things. People will not question me even if they think something I do is weird because they’ll think ‘Oh she’s a foreigner anyway”. 

With white skin and brown hair, she is evidently a 外人, a foreigner. She’s tall. She doesn’t look Japanese. And living in a somewhat small community in Hiroshima, she was known as ‘the’ foreign exchange student. So she felt she was pardoned from not following some social norms when she was out in public. 

On the contrary to Hanna, Katie had a totally different experience. Katie is Korean American from Illinois. And since both of her parents are Korean, growing up, she was immersed in Korean culture at home. I asked what her experience was like living in Japan. 

Katie: Because I speak Japanese and have an Asian appearance, so it helps the Japanese people accept me more. Because they don’t immediately realize I’m a foreigner. So it starts off by them thinking I’m Japanese and then accepting me as Japanese. And then once they find out I’m a foreigner, they’ll be like “oh you’re a foreigner” kind of thingy. 

Kaho Koda: But that can also be a problem at times… 

Katie: I think it’s because everyone treats me as if I’m Japanese, I kind of like it when they treat me like a foreigner.

Kaho Koda: Throughout the interviews, the impression that I got from many foreigners who lived in Japan was that they didn’t appreciate being seen as a foreigner. Remember episode 5, the previous episode, I mentioned what Lizzie calls the 外人 effect and Erik didn’t appreciate what happens on the train. If you haven’t listened to that episode, I highly recommend you go listen…. Anywho, I had heard “I don’t want to be seen as a foreigner” many times. 

So Katie’s perspective was new to me. However, when she explained her point of view, I understood her frustration. 

Katie: Cause sometimes they’ll expect me to know everything. Thinking I’m Japanese, they’ll expect me to know all of the rules and customs of each location or whatever… but I won’t know ‘em… so I’d be lost. Like “oh I don’t know what to do here”. And they’ll look at me in a weird way, like, “why don’t you know?” And if there’s a sign that I can’t read, I won’t know. And they’d be like “why don’t you know?” kind of thingy. So in those situations I usually want to look like a foreigner so they know that it’s normal that I don’t know what’s going on. 

Kaho Koda: Since she’s Asian, Japanese people assume she’s Japanese. And when Katie isn’t following the Japanese social norms or the written out rules, she feels judged by the Japanese people around her. 

Katie: I think the biggest issue that I had was that.. I did study Japanese but I can’t read all of the Chinese characters, the Kanji characters. So some signs I can’t read them. And I’ll be like “Ooooo, what does that mean?” Google translate real quick. 

Kaho Koda: Let’s say she goes to an unfamiliar area and there’s a sign stating something that she’s not supposed to do there. For instance, something like, “don’t park your bike here”. But when there’s no picture, when it’s just in Japanese writing, in Kanji, Katie won’t be able to read that. And let’s say she parks her bike right where the sign says no parking… From a Japanese person who happened to witness her behaviour, they might think “What a rude woman” because Katie looks Japanese. 

There’s a sign right there! Why aren’t you following the rules? 

I also spoke with Patrick. He’s first-generation Thai-American born and raised in LA. He’d been living in Japan for a couple years so I asked if he makes a conscious effort to integrate into Japanese society besides learning the language. What integration looks like for him. 

Patrick: I suppose it’s very small but I guess a lot of Japan is all about the small unwritten rules and I try my absolute hardest to do absolutely everything that I know how to do correctly… 

Kaho Koda: He said he’ll stand on one side of the escalator if he’s not walking, like how the Japanese do. He’ll try to talk quietly on the train when he’s with friends so that he doesn’t disturb others. He tries his best to follow the unwritten social rules. 

Patrick: Oh actually another thing that I do to integrate is, which is fairly uncommon? not uncommon but like, since I do look Asian, generally people don’t stare at me or anything like that. And they usually assume that I’m Japanese. So I try to pass off if I can by like, you know, when I speak, I can say certain phrases very well, I feel like. Especially if I mumble them, you know. I basically try until the last moment to pass off as Japanese until it’s no longer possible. Store clerks, maybe if I bump into somebody… yeah I basically try and pretend to be Japanese up until that last possible moment.   

Kaho Koda: Hanna felt like she was pardoned from making mistakes while Katie and Patrick are aware that they’re seen as Japanese, even though they are not, so they’re careful when it comes to following social norms. 

TAKE AWAY

Eri: Sometimes I ignore my questions, and I just take it for what it is.

Kaho Koda: Conforming to the group maintains peace and harmony within society. To avoid conflict, a Japanese individual won’t interrupt or ask a question when others are speaking. But it also means that agency is lost. The self is less significant. 

Expats need to be aware of the Japanese social norms, but their experience can vary depending on if they look Japanese or not. 

There’s always at least one take away whenever I do an interview for this podcast. But one remarkable point I noticed is this: Expats who are in a relationship with a Japanese individual are more understanding of the Japanese mindset. They can definitely be critical about Japan and mention things that they disagree with. Whether it’s about politics, feminism, and so on. 

However, expats in a relationship with a Japanese partner will be more empathetic. I heard many comments like “Coming from a western point of view, it was difficult to understand so and so at first… But now I understand why that is”. 

Maybe because that’s a somewhat core aspect of being in an international relationship. The couple will have cultural differences, and that needs to be addressed. There needs to be some sort of middle ground for the relationship to work. Not a compromise, but an understanding. The willingness to understand each other’s culture.

I’m going to end this episode with Fanny’s interview. Fanny, a French woman living in Tokyo, talked about how the discrepancy in the perception of happiness affected her relationship with a Japanese partner. 

Fanny: I think one of the main difference that Japanese people think about happiness. Their happiness comes from that fact of making the people around them or whether it’s in the company, or in the society, or in the family, happy. So for instance even if they don’t like their job or if their boss is being mean, by staying in this position, by working and not making waves, they would get their salary and their boss would be happy. And they wouldn’t make trouble around them. And that’s what’s considered good or valuable for Japan. 

Whereas in our western society we tend to be individualistic and be thinking “What makes me happy? What is my happiness?”  

Kaho Koda: She said that it took so long for her to understand the Japanese perspective of what happiness is. But now she understands. She also added the following. 

Fanny: I think that’s one of the main differences, but I also think it’s one of the main reasons why it’s so easy and comfortable living in Japan. It’s because everyone around you is constantly thinking about not disturbing other people around and being polite and being nice. I feel like we have to acknowledge that still the fact that they don’t stand up or accept their position and they don’t try to make waves is also one of the reasons why Japan is so safe and convenient and so easy to live in, in a general manner, I’d say. 

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Hanna Szabo, Fanny Berteaud, Patrick Phan, Michael Smith, Misora Yamaya, and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

If you’d like to listen to Season 2, please consider purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore shop.humanburrito.com. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com. 

I want to say a special thanks to those that made this show possible, from the demo phase to production whether it’s emotional support or advice. Rutger, Eelke, Sophia, Merel, and Van Anh. Thank you. 

And that was season 1. Till next time.