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Transcript

INTRO

Kaho Koda: From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’.

Hi. Long time no see… or no hear I guess.

It’s been a while since season 1.

The good news is that we will be back for season 2! The whole team is back actually. And I have more news to share with you: 

I started Patreon. To those of you who are not familiar with Patreon, it’s a membership based platform that connects creators, like me, with fans and supporters, like you. On this platform I get to share my entire journey of producing this show. 

Looking back at season 1, there were so many creative decisions I had to make, each with its own pros and cons. Like, the biggest question was “how am I going to structure this podcast?”. Because once that’s established, the foundation is set. 

Will each episode be structured around a topic? Or should I dedicate one episode to an individual? The thought process consisted of post-it notes on the kitchen cupboard and revelations in the shower. To sum up, it was very messy! 

And so for season 2, I want to share this messy process with the biggest fans of the podcast. You can get backstage access via Patreon and you’ll be financially supporting us to create more episodes. If you’d like to know more about it, please visit https://www.patreon.com/controversialjapan. 

And while you wait for season 2, I wanted to bring you a couple bonus episodes. These are stories that were interesting and funny, but didn’t make it into season 1 because of time restraints or because it didn’t fit into any of the discussed topics. 

Today’s bonus episode is about Kitsune udon and customer service in Japan. 

Junan, transition tune please. 

INTERNATIONAL’S PERSPECTIVE

Erik: If Nara is the cake, then Kyoto is the biscuit, and then Osaka is my favourite Japanese dish which is, Kitsune udon. Super easy, yeah I know it’s super easy, but it’s the only thing that I can really eat, to be honest. 

Kaho Koda: Erik is Dutch and he grew up in a small town in the Netherlands. We spoke about his trip to Nara and Kyoto while he lived in Osaka. He told me that he was not a big fan of Kyoto. He appreciated visiting Nara more because he saw how a city could coexist with nature. 

To him, Nara is a cake. Kyoto, a biscuit, and Osaka, a Kitsune udon. Kitsune udon is a simple noodle dish in a broth with fried tofu on top. He admitted that it was difficult to come up with Japanese cuisines for Nara and Kyoto because, well, he’s vegetarian. 

Vegetarianism and veganism are foreign to the Japanese. To be honest, one of the big culture shocks that I had when I moved to Montreal, Canada from Japan was the dietary preferences that people had. Back in 2011, oh gosh, that’s a decade ago, I knew the word “vegetarian”, but it was all theoretical to me. I never knew that there were so many people who were actually “vegetarian” or “vegan”. Vegan was definitely a new word since so many cuisines in Japan are either meat or fish based. 

Recently, when a vegetarian friend requested a Japanese bento for lunch, I flipped through my go to cookbook, which was a gift from my mother. And out of 160 recipes in this book, I found one that was truly vegetarian. The problem is.. even if a recipe called for vegetables and no meat or fish, the broth or sauce would contain some sort of fish extract. 

Erik said that it was difficult to be fully vegetarian in Japan. Just because there’s not much supplements available. Eating tofu every single evening got to him. While he lived in Japan he compromised by eating some fish for nutrition when necessary. – But of course, no meat. 

Erik: Yeah, Kitsune udon is still the best.

Kaho Koda: One of the things he could eat out was Kitsune udon… But that also came with its own problem. The broth. 

Erik: I tend to make it myself. I do go to some places, but the problem is they use meat broth. So that’s also not vegetarian. If they use fish broth, again, I’m okay with that. I tend to ask which one they use. Or I ask “can you not use the meat broth?”And then nine out of the ten times, I still get the meat broth so that’s a little bit annoying. Because it’s a request that they never get. 

Kaho Koda: Vegetarianism is not common amongst the Japanese. So from the restaurant’s perspective, the request itself is absurd.  

And let me say that Japanese customer service is.. It’s like they absolutely cannot deviate from the script. It seems like there’s a strict manual that they follow. Without room for improvisation. 

Erik: Also several times I’ve asked for having a particular meal, but without the meat, right? Because that’s still fine. And then they just look in awe. Like, “But that’s what you’re paying for? Primarily” And in my opinion, it doesn’t really matter if I pay the full price for a meal if it doesn’t have meat. I don’t really care. As long as I can eat some food, that’s all fine with me.

Kaho Koda: Sachi, a Canadian actor, also spoke about Japanese customer service in her interview. She’s half British and half Japanese and grew up in Canada. She experienced many frustrating things when she lived in Japan during her studies. Customer service, being one of them. 

Sachi: It’s funny because Japan, I find, is so innovative in so many different fields. Like technology or creativity. Like animation, say. But I find that thinking outside the box in customer vs. provider/business? Customer vs. business relationships – thinking outside of the box isn’t a thing. It frustrated me a lot. Being in a restaurant…

Kaho Koda: It would happen often enough. She would go to a restaurant and order a dish with a raw egg on top. And she’s not a big fan of raw eggs so she tried ordering without it. 

Sachi: The answer, 100% of the time would be “Ahhhhhhh sorry, can’t do that. So sorry. The dish is with the egg”. But I’m like “No, I understand. But I’m actually saving you money and product by not including it. That’s my wish as a customer” And they’re like, “No, sorry sorry. That’s not possible.” That kind of thing. It happens a lot. 

Kaho Koda: She was so frustrated with this kind of interaction. If the dish had a cracked egg on top, it had to be served.. 

On the other hand, she understands the beauty of this system too. 

Sachi: And I guess the rule following, that aspect, again, I see the beauty of it. How things can be so streamlined. Providing everyone the same experience. But I’ve been frustrated by it at times.

Kaho Koda: Sachi is saying that there’s no room for improvisation because the restaurant wants to guarantee the quality of service for every customer. Consistency. And to stay consistent, you can’t play it by ear. You have to follow the manual.. Even if that means wasting an egg.  

Sachi understands the beauty in it, but she’s still frustrated. 

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: I want to try to bring in an opposite example where a Japanese person experiences customer service abroad. Someone who’s used to the consistency, but experienced unpredictable customer service.

Chikako:一回、イタリアに旅行に行った時、 南イタリアのレストランに行った時に。。

Kaho Koda: I want to introduce Chikako. She’s half Japanese and half Dutch and she grew up in Tokyo. I asked about her take on Japanese customer service and she talked about her vacation in Italy. 

When she visited southern Italy, this Italian waiter at a restaurant was in such a great mood. He was practically dancing as he took orders. And he was super friendly. He explained his recommendation from the menu in detail. She enjoyed it very much and she felt like she was really in Italy. 

But then, a lady sitting next to her complained to the waiter that her food was taking too long, which turned into an argument between the lady and the jolly waiter. 

After her complaint, the waiter’s mood changed drastically. He was clearly down. He stopped making small talk and of course, no longer dancing around taking orders. Chikako felt bad for him and so after she finished her meal, she made sure to say that the food was delicious and that she had a lovely time. But that didn’t help. 

Chikako: 日本だったら、両方絶対ないじゃない？陽気にステップ踏むくらいテンション高い接客もないし。。。

Kaho Koda: Chikako said that this dramatic shift in the waiter’s attitude, in other words, this kind of change in customer service would never happen in Japan. Yes, if a Japanese waiter is going through something in his or her personal life, they might take a breather in the kitchen. However, the service stays the same. The service remains consistent regardless of the waiter’s mood. 

She said “It’s a unique characteristic of Japan. It’s very robotic. But being robotic is also nice because that means that the quality in customer service stays the same.”

TAKE AWAY

Kaho Koda: Consistent customer service is reflected in public transport as well. Trains and buses arrive on schedule. If a bus is early to the bus stop, the driver will wait until it’s the scheduled time to continue his or her route. 

Consistency means the same service is guaranteed. Whether that’s taken as a pro or a con depends on the consumer. 

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Sachi Lovatt and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can check out more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also listen to her on Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore:https://shop.humanburrito.com/. And don’t forget to check out our new page on patreon at https://www.patreon.com/controversialjapan.

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more bonus stories from Season 1. Till next time. 

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Eri: Sometimes I ignore my questions, and I just take it for what it is.

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores the Japanese group-oriented mindset and collectivist culture.   

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Eri is Japanese. She grew up in South Korea, Malaysia and Japan and she’s currently a master’s student studying applied cultural analysis in Denmark. She also studied abroad for a year in San Diego as part of her Bachelor’s. 

I asked what her motivation was to study abroad. To be honest, I expected her answer to be something like “I wanted to live overseas” or “for the experience”. And of course that’s definitely part of it, but there was more to it. 

She said that she wanted to study abroad for academic empowerment. 

It happened during her first year at her Japanese university. She took many classes that happened to have a lot of foreign exchange students as her classmates. 

Eri: I noticed a significant difference between my academic level. And also being critical or… through discussions I found a lot of different kinds of skill sets that a lot of the international students had that I don’t have. 

Kaho Koda: The foreign exchange students had opinions. They had questions. And they didn’t shy away from discussions. This was very new to her. She told me that the questions that her international students asked in class were just so eye opening. The attention to detail. The sensitivity towards what they don’t understand and then responding to it. 

I shared a similar experience.

When I moved to Montreal, Canada at age 16, I was shocked at how all of the students participated in class. When teachers asked questions, the students actually responded. And students wanted to participate.

In my Japanese high school not many participated. I remember the teacher would have to call on a student to answer the question. Hands were rarely raised. Students were rather reluctant to answer the question. 

Back in Japan, I was used to being on the receiving end of knowledge. The teacher would talk in front of the chalkboard and we would take notes. And looking back now, there was not really an opportunity to have discussions in class. It was minimal. No research projects. The Japanese education system encouraged the abundance of knowledge and not much emphasis on critical thinking. 

What does secondary school education in Japan look like from the western point of view? 

Michael, an English teacher from the US, spoke about his culture shock while teaching in a Japanese middle school. He’s been teaching English in Japan for roughly five years now. 

His school was part of a contest working with schools from other countries. Australia and Taiwan, to be precise. And his colleague showed Michael a survey that he made for the Australian and Taiwanese students to fill out. 

Michael: Japanese students surprisingly don’t really learn computer technology until high school so they’re kind of behind when it comes to those kinds of skills. And he was making a survey that he was gonna give to the other schools. And I read over it. It was so… I don’t even know what the right word is. I feel like, as a westerner, if I got this, I would be kind of be like “Is this real? Are you serious?” 

Because they were questions like “have you ever used data before? Have you ever used data to do a project?”, which most people in the west, we do do a lot of research projects. And you know I think that was a big culture shock for me to find out how it’s really missing some of those key things. These are things that even transcend culture. Like critical thinking. Being able to do research. There were these things that I was like “wow, you really don’t learn these things”.  

Kaho Koda: He found out later that students learn how to conduct research in university. He thinks that’s quite late. Referring to research and critical thinking, he said, “even a middle school student should be learning these skills”. 

Let’s go back to Eri’s story. 

After she told me about how amazed she was with international students having and stating their own opinions in class, she moved on to how Japanese people are. 

Eri: Asking questions that’s something that… When I’m speaking to Japanese people, like even my Japanese friends, even if they don’t understand something, they won’t ask questions about it like “Oh what is this?”

Kaho Koda: According to Eri, people don’t ask questions in Japan. Whether it’s academic or a casual conversation with friends, asking a question is not really a common behaviour. She said that if someone is talking, a Japanese person won’t interrupt or ask questions even if something is unclear. 

That’s also what Eri used to do before she noticed she was doing it herself. Eri mentioned that her then unconscious behaviour of not asking questions affected her romantic relationship as well. 

Her boyfriend is Dutch. There were some cultural clashes at the beginning of the relationship because Dutch people are very very direct. I can relate. My partner is Dutch and I currently live in the Netherlands – it was a culture shock for me as well. Dutch people are the opposite of Japanese people when it comes to communication. The Japanese roundabout way of conversation, avoiding directness, is just so foreign to the Dutch. 

Eri said that her Dutch boyfriend always made it clear what he wanted to say or what he meant. He was direct and he asked questions without any hesitation. And from her Japanese point of view, it was quite surprising. 

Eri: Even within our relationship, at the very start, I didn’t stop him in the middle of the conversation and ask him what he meant or what does this word mean? What is this? Because in Japan we don’t really do that. 90% of the environment that I surround myself with in Japan, is Japanese so I don’t do that so it’s not just in my habit. 

Kaho Koda: Not asking questions – this also applies in the workplace. She once went into a job interview and when she asked a question to the interviewer, he said that it was his first time he was asked this specific question and that he didn’t know how to answer it. And that was the end of it. The Interviewer never responded to her question.

Eri: We’re very much told to accept the role that you’re given. I think there’s less questioning going on in the country. I feel very much that I’m not critical enough or I’m not asking enough questions. Or sometimes I ignore my questions. And I just take it for what it is. 

Kaho Koda: In Japan, maintaining social harmony is key. We’ve been exploring that concept this season. You heard me talk about 協調性, being harmonious, multiple times. On the flip side of maintaining social harmony is avoiding conflict. Don’t be assertive. Don’t ask questions. Conform to what others say. Conform to the group. 

Today I want to discuss conformity. How the Japanese follow the crowd. The majority. The norm. First, let’s look at Japanese individuals’ opinions on conformity, and later, we’ll explore what it’s like for internationals to navigate the harmonious Japanese society. 

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: Okay, Let’s start by looking at how the Japanese view themselves. 

When I interviewed Japanese people, I made sure to ask this question “What does it mean to be Japanese?”. And this was the response I received from Japanese individuals. 

Misora: 自分を蔑む人が多いかな？って。 

Kaho Koda: Misora said that Japanese people put themselves down to bring up others.  

You might be confused. I’ll walk you through an example. 

Let’s say someone compliments you and your achievement, for example, “Wow! Your performance was beautiful! You did great”. The western response is “Thank you”. You say thanks to the praise. You appreciate them. Quite Straightforward, right? 

The Japanese response is more like「いえいえ、そんなことないです」which translates to “No, no, no, no, not really.” 

When someone is praising you, you don’t say ‘thanks’ in Japanese. Because that would mean that you also think that you performed beautifully. The Japanese virtue is to not accept the praise and bring yourself down instead by saying “No, I wasn’t good enough”. Make a self-deprecating remark. Out of respect to the person who praised you. 

That’s what Misora means. “Japanese people put themselves down to bring up the other”. 

In addition, she added that saying “no” to someone is impolite. At the root of that thought process is again, respect. Japanese people think “Am I making the other person uncomfortable by saying no? Am I gonna bother the other person?” 「迷惑をかけない」”Don’t bother other people” is a Japanese instinct. 

Whether it’s for work, romance, or just daily interactions, the virtue is to conform to others. Agree to what others say so that you don’t disrespect them. 

Going back to our main story, what Eri said, “Japanese people don’t ask questions”. Interrupting someone and asking them to elaborate and clarify can be rude. So let’s listen first. And if the conversation takes a turn and moves onto a different topic, just leave it. 

Chikako also spoke about how Japanese people conform to others. We discussed the homogenous group-oriented mindset in detail. Chikako was born in Amsterdam and grew up in Tokyo. She’s half Japanese and half Dutch. She’s in her mid-twenties. She said she was always part of the group, the majority, the norm. And that she unknowingly participated in collective behaviour all her life. She never questioned her actions. How she conformed to the group. 

Chikako: あのー日本の集団の動きってめっちゃ洗練されてて。。

Kaho Koda: She said, “The Japanese group-oriented mindset is so refined that even when you’re in the group, you aren’t aware of it. You unconsciously adjust your behaviour to match others around you – that’s the magic rule.”   

Again, Japan is a collectivist culture. Community is more important than the individual. It’s so easy to belong to a community in Japanese society. Here’s one example. 

Unlike North America, Japan starts the new academic calendar in April. Students from daycare, kindergarten, elementary school, to university, they all start a new grade in April – cherry blossom season. It’s a beautiful time of the year. And the end of the academic calendar, graduation season, is in March. 

Elementary school is a total of six years. Middle school, three years. High school, three years. And University, four years. 

That’s the standard. The norm. And everyone in your grade was born in the same year as you. It’s very rare to skip a grade in Japan.

And this is the important part. In your third year of university, you attend job fairs and go through job interviews. The idea is to have a job waiting for you before graduation. Once all of the students graduate in March, all newly graduates start their permanent salaried jobs on April 1st. 

It’s a big day, April 1st. A new beginning for everybody! If you’re a student, you move up a grade. The media features the 新社会人, meaning, the new members of society, on the news. Musicians and bands release new songs featuring さくら, cherry blossoms in their lyrics. It symbolizes new beginnings and hope. 

And since the 新社会人, the new members of society, are starting on the exact same day, they all go through training together, as a group. You train together and then start working together as a group. There are get-togethers and after work drink events that you attend. And after a year of working in the company, when the next April approaches, you’re in your second year of 社会人, a member of society. And the next 新社会人, the new members of society, enter the company. Feels a bit like an extension of school, doesn’t it?

Japanese people are reminded that they are active members of society. And at the same time, they belong to this group. The community.  

Sanhi, a Korean woman who’s lived in Japan most of her life, also agrees: Japanese people conform to the environment, what the group wants. 

Sanhi:日本のそういう考え方に違和感を持ちつつも。。。

Kaho Koda: She said that sometimes the group-oriented mindset bothers her too. But having lived in Japan for more than 20 years now, that’s also become her norm. She also doesn’t mind adjusting her behaviour to maintain the group harmony. She said it’s part of her personality. 

Sanhi’s impression is that when someone is not too fond of adjusting their behaviour to match the group, to maintain the group harmony, that’s when they get uncomfortable living in Japan. Ultimately, they’ll leave. She has a close Japanese friend who left Japan because of this reason. 

Sanhi doesn’t know if she’ll live in Japan forever. But for now, it’s her home. It’s easy to live. Safe. Comfortable. 

The Japanese put themselves down to bring up others, out of respect. And since it’s rude to interrupt, they won’t ask questions. They’ll conform to keep the social harmony. Some Japanese find conformity to be comforting and some might leave because they question it… 

Next up: how do the internationals navigate Japan? 

Right after the break. 

Hi guys, writer and host, Kaho here. Thanks for listening to episode 6 of Controversial Japan! This episode is actually the last episode of the season. I know, I’m sad too. Are you interested in season 2? If so, please help us out by purchasing our merch. When you buy a cute totebag or a sweater, we get to continue producing more episodes for you to enjoy. Go to shop.humanburrito.com  And thanks for your support! 

INTERNATIONAL’S EXPERIENCE

Kaho Koda: We explored how the Japanese view the group-oriented mindset and collectivist culture. What’s the experience like for internationals? 

I spoke with Hanna. Hanna is originally from Budapest, Hungary and she currently lives in Germany. She told me about the year she studied abroad in Hiroshima, Japan. She attended a Japanese all girls’ high school. It was a private school with a cute uniform and everything. Lots of rules. It was very strict. But she kept an open mind because she knew it was only for a year. 

I asked her to list some of the rules that she remembered. 

If you have long hair, you have to have it up in a ponytail or in braids. Hair ties need to be black or grey. Of course, no make up. No piercings – Hanna had pierced ears, so she was not allowed to wear earrings to school. 

This is quite standard in a Japanese private school. Some public schools have this kind of strict rule as well. Some schools are a bit more relaxed… It depends. 

Hanna: Nails had to be cut short. Really short. So like not daily, that would be a bit crazy but, maybe not crazy, but time consuming. Once in a while they would do routine checks…

Kaho Koda: This happened the first week she was there. She had 2 long nails. The teacher made her and the others who failed the inspection to cut their nails in the middle of the room. They had to surround a garbage bin and cut their nails in front of the other students who passed the inspection. She said that it was weirdly humiliating. That event was an introduction to school regulations for her in the mini society: school. 

There were so many rules that she had to learn and follow. Not just in school, but also out in public. The Japanese norm. I asked her what that was like for her. 

Hanna: I felt like I could get away with things…

Kaho Koda: The recording turned out to be a little muffled, so I’m going to read out loud what she said. 

“I felt like I could get away with things. People will not question me even if they think something I do is weird because they’ll think ‘Oh she’s a foreigner anyway”. 

With white skin and brown hair, she is evidently a 外人, a foreigner. She’s tall. She doesn’t look Japanese. And living in a somewhat small community in Hiroshima, she was known as ‘the’ foreign exchange student. So she felt she was pardoned from not following some social norms when she was out in public. 

On the contrary to Hanna, Katie had a totally different experience. Katie is Korean American from Illinois. And since both of her parents are Korean, growing up, she was immersed in Korean culture at home. I asked what her experience was like living in Japan. 

Katie: Because I speak Japanese and have an Asian appearance, so it helps the Japanese people accept me more. Because they don’t immediately realize I’m a foreigner. So it starts off by them thinking I’m Japanese and then accepting me as Japanese. And then once they find out I’m a foreigner, they’ll be like “oh you’re a foreigner” kind of thingy. 

Kaho Koda: But that can also be a problem at times… 

Katie: I think it’s because everyone treats me as if I’m Japanese, I kind of like it when they treat me like a foreigner.

Kaho Koda: Throughout the interviews, the impression that I got from many foreigners who lived in Japan was that they didn’t appreciate being seen as a foreigner. Remember episode 5, the previous episode, I mentioned what Lizzie calls the 外人 effect and Erik didn’t appreciate what happens on the train. If you haven’t listened to that episode, I highly recommend you go listen…. Anywho, I had heard “I don’t want to be seen as a foreigner” many times. 

So Katie’s perspective was new to me. However, when she explained her point of view, I understood her frustration. 

Katie: Cause sometimes they’ll expect me to know everything. Thinking I’m Japanese, they’ll expect me to know all of the rules and customs of each location or whatever… but I won’t know ‘em… so I’d be lost. Like “oh I don’t know what to do here”. And they’ll look at me in a weird way, like, “why don’t you know?” And if there’s a sign that I can’t read, I won’t know. And they’d be like “why don’t you know?” kind of thingy. So in those situations I usually want to look like a foreigner so they know that it’s normal that I don’t know what’s going on. 

Kaho Koda: Since she’s Asian, Japanese people assume she’s Japanese. And when Katie isn’t following the Japanese social norms or the written out rules, she feels judged by the Japanese people around her. 

Katie: I think the biggest issue that I had was that.. I did study Japanese but I can’t read all of the Chinese characters, the Kanji characters. So some signs I can’t read them. And I’ll be like “Ooooo, what does that mean?” Google translate real quick. 

Kaho Koda: Let’s say she goes to an unfamiliar area and there’s a sign stating something that she’s not supposed to do there. For instance, something like, “don’t park your bike here”. But when there’s no picture, when it’s just in Japanese writing, in Kanji, Katie won’t be able to read that. And let’s say she parks her bike right where the sign says no parking… From a Japanese person who happened to witness her behaviour, they might think “What a rude woman” because Katie looks Japanese. 

There’s a sign right there! Why aren’t you following the rules? 

I also spoke with Patrick. He’s first-generation Thai-American born and raised in LA. He’d been living in Japan for a couple years so I asked if he makes a conscious effort to integrate into Japanese society besides learning the language. What integration looks like for him. 

Patrick: I suppose it’s very small but I guess a lot of Japan is all about the small unwritten rules and I try my absolute hardest to do absolutely everything that I know how to do correctly… 

Kaho Koda: He said he’ll stand on one side of the escalator if he’s not walking, like how the Japanese do. He’ll try to talk quietly on the train when he’s with friends so that he doesn’t disturb others. He tries his best to follow the unwritten social rules. 

Patrick: Oh actually another thing that I do to integrate is, which is fairly uncommon? not uncommon but like, since I do look Asian, generally people don’t stare at me or anything like that. And they usually assume that I’m Japanese. So I try to pass off if I can by like, you know, when I speak, I can say certain phrases very well, I feel like. Especially if I mumble them, you know. I basically try until the last moment to pass off as Japanese until it’s no longer possible. Store clerks, maybe if I bump into somebody… yeah I basically try and pretend to be Japanese up until that last possible moment.   

Kaho Koda: Hanna felt like she was pardoned from making mistakes while Katie and Patrick are aware that they’re seen as Japanese, even though they are not, so they’re careful when it comes to following social norms. 

TAKE AWAY

Eri: Sometimes I ignore my questions, and I just take it for what it is.

Kaho Koda: Conforming to the group maintains peace and harmony within society. To avoid conflict, a Japanese individual won’t interrupt or ask a question when others are speaking. But it also means that agency is lost. The self is less significant. 

Expats need to be aware of the Japanese social norms, but their experience can vary depending on if they look Japanese or not. 

There’s always at least one take away whenever I do an interview for this podcast. But one remarkable point I noticed is this: Expats who are in a relationship with a Japanese individual are more understanding of the Japanese mindset. They can definitely be critical about Japan and mention things that they disagree with. Whether it’s about politics, feminism, and so on. 

However, expats in a relationship with a Japanese partner will be more empathetic. I heard many comments like “Coming from a western point of view, it was difficult to understand so and so at first… But now I understand why that is”. 

Maybe because that’s a somewhat core aspect of being in an international relationship. The couple will have cultural differences, and that needs to be addressed. There needs to be some sort of middle ground for the relationship to work. Not a compromise, but an understanding. The willingness to understand each other’s culture.

I’m going to end this episode with Fanny’s interview. Fanny, a French woman living in Tokyo, talked about how the discrepancy in the perception of happiness affected her relationship with a Japanese partner. 

Fanny: I think one of the main difference that Japanese people think about happiness. Their happiness comes from that fact of making the people around them or whether it’s in the company, or in the society, or in the family, happy. So for instance even if they don’t like their job or if their boss is being mean, by staying in this position, by working and not making waves, they would get their salary and their boss would be happy. And they wouldn’t make trouble around them. And that’s what’s considered good or valuable for Japan. 

Whereas in our western society we tend to be individualistic and be thinking “What makes me happy? What is my happiness?”  

Kaho Koda: She said that it took so long for her to understand the Japanese perspective of what happiness is. But now she understands. She also added the following. 

Fanny: I think that’s one of the main differences, but I also think it’s one of the main reasons why it’s so easy and comfortable living in Japan. It’s because everyone around you is constantly thinking about not disturbing other people around and being polite and being nice. I feel like we have to acknowledge that still the fact that they don’t stand up or accept their position and they don’t try to make waves is also one of the reasons why Japan is so safe and convenient and so easy to live in, in a general manner, I’d say. 

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Hanna Szabo, Fanny Berteaud, Patrick Phan, Michael Smith, Misora Yamaya, and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

If you’d like to listen to Season 2, please consider purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore shop.humanburrito.com. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com. 

I want to say a special thanks to those that made this show possible, from the demo phase to production whether it’s emotional support or advice. Rutger, Eelke, Sophia, Merel, and Van Anh. Thank you. 

And that was season 1. Till next time. 

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Rutger: I’m on a holiday. I’m there for the experience, right? But there are other people living their lives. My experience just intrudes in their lives, basically

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores Kyoto and tourism.  

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Rutger: I feel like such a white dude talking about your country.

Kaho Koda: Well I’m asking you to talk about it so. 

Rutger is Dutch and he grew up in the Netherlands. And he happens to be my boyfriend. 

Winter of 2018, we visited Japan together. This was his first time in Japan but he already knew a lot about the Japanese culture because of our relationship. We’ve discussed topics related to Japan, believe me, many many times. So his view on Japan had a tint of me prior to the visit. 

After visiting friends and family in Tokyo, we took a trip to Kyoto. It was actually my first time in Kyoto as well. 

Kyoto needs no introduction. It was the original capital of Japan for centuries until the capital moved to Edo, now named Tokyo. Kyoto is filled with significant temples, shrines, and artifacts. When you think of Kyoto, you might think of 伏見稲荷, famous for the red 千本鳥居, the thousand red toriis that tourists love so much that it’s always trending on Instagram. 

One evening, we looked for a restaurant in the touristy part of Kyoto. We eventually decided to go into a traditional Japanese izakaya restaurant. 

Rutger: The waiter, or the head waiter snapped his neck, very quickly looking at me. And I could just see panic in his eyes.

Kaho Koda: As soon as the waiter saw Rutger, he glanced towards a chef behind the counter. He was an older looking man, maybe in his 50’s or 60’s, wearing a white chef’s uniform. Safe to assume he was the head chef. He looked at Rutger and.. shook his head. 

Rutger is white, evidently a gaijin, a foreigner. I quickly understood what was happening. We were about to be denied service. After the head chef signaled ‘no’ to the waiter, the waiter approached us. Before the waiter could say anything to us, I blurted out, 「二人なんですけど、お席空いてますか？」meaning, “We’re two people, do you have any space left?”. 

The waiter looked surprised that I spoke in Japanese. With my tanned skin and how I dress, I’m often told I don’t look Japanese. He probably suspected that we were both gaijin, foreigners. He hesitated for a second but let us sit. 

Rutger: But yeah, they almost denied us service. The moment I got in, very quickly I got the feeling like I wasn’t supposed to be there. And they were like “No no no, it’s not gonna work.” So you asked for a table and we eventually did get one, but it wasn’t a table. We were stuffed away in a corner, which I found was quite funny.

Kaho Koda: There were empty tables at the back.. But no, we were given the counter seats right by the entrance. Early January, so every time a customer walked in, there was a breeze. The empty tables in the back, maybe they were reserved seating… I hope that was the case. The food was good, but the interaction with the waiter, how the head chef shook his head looking at Rutger, left a bad taste in my mouth. 

After dinner we decided to go to a hidden bar that Rutger found online. 

We sat next to a couple. It turned out they were from Australia. A white woman and a black man. We began by making awkward eye contact with each other and in ten minutes we started talking about where we’re from, why we’re traveling, where we’ve been, you know, the general conversation you have when you meet people who are also traveling… and we eventually got to the topic. I explained what happened earlier at the izakaya. How we were almost rejected at the restaurant.

The Australian couple nodded and then they said, “Yup, we’ve experienced that too. And not just once, but a couple of times”.

Then there was a slight pause. 

And then the husband said, “Is it because I’m black?”

I felt sorry. And I was ashamed. Sorry it happened to them and sorry that they didn’t know the reason why they were rejected. Ashamed and disappointed as a Japanese individual that my country treated this lovely couple in that way. 

In front of the Australian couple, as a Japanese individual, I was the representative of Japan – whether I liked it or not. I felt like I owed them some kind of an explanation.

At that moment, here’s what I said to them. 

“No, I don’t think you were rejected because you’re black. Of course I don’t know the real reason, but I think it’s because you both look like a foreign tourist. They probably didn’t want to go through the trouble of trying to speak in English or translate the menu for you.”

Even though Rutger and I were about to get rejected, we had a way out because, well, I’m Japanese and I speak Japanese. But I was furious. I was offended. They looked at Rutger, saw that he was a foreigner, made an assumption that he couldn’t understand the menu, and decided to say ‘no’ to us… well, which I prevented. What the restaurant was about to do to us, what the restaurant did to the Australian couple, it was discriminatory.

Having lived in Japan, the US, Canada, and now living in the Netherlands, I’ve become very aware of the different types of racism or discrimination. I’ve experienced the typical “go back to your country” scream from a racist elderly person. I’ve gone through ignorant insensitive questions from people I just met. 

In any situation, whether it be an everyday conversation or a one line joke in a tv show, if there’s any racial aspect or discrimination involved, I obsess over it. I replay the scenario over and over in my head and try to justify that the person didn’t mean it in a negative way. I analyze it. I question it. Is the joke funny or is it just plain inappropriate?

So when Rutger, my significant other, experienced something because of the way he looked, I couldn’t let it go. 

However, Rutger didn’t feel the same way. 

Rutger: I didn’t really think anything of it. I just thought it was a funny situation. But you were very much offended, which got me to think about it basically. I didn’t feel offended or I didn’t feel rejected or I didn’t feel there was racism in it. As for you, you pretty much felt differently about that. 

The restaurant doesn’t carry an English menu so that would be the first problem. They are just not set up for foreigners that do not speak Japanese. And I’m going to have a great time but I’m gonna be a difficult client for the waiters and chefs… so yeah I totally understand their point of view or they’re less inclined to serve us. They would probably say like “No no no. No space” or whatever and they would probably win me out on a bit of an excuse. They would send me out.

I didn’t feel anything about it. 

Kaho Koda: Many Japanese people have a difficult time speaking in English. It’s difficult to give you an exact percentage of people who don’t speak English – Some websites say over 60% some say 70…. What’s the best way to measure English fluency anyway? But to give you an idea, I’ll give you a stat from the TOEFL iBT test – It’s a standardized test for English as a second language and the scores are used for employment, university applications, and so on. The test has four components. Reading, writing, speaking, and listening. Amongst Asian countries, Japan ranks last in the speaking category. 

Rutger understands that he’s a tricky client in Japan. And he’s okay with restaurants refusing to seat him.  

And then he recalled another evening where we went to a whiskey bar in Kyoto. The bar was empty when we arrived. 

Rutger: The bar was very empty and very tiny. There was one bartender. Almost like a living room kind of setting. We walked in and immediately again, panic in his eyes. And a little bit of comfort in the fact that you spoke Japanese. But he served us a drink, but then because we were sitting there, other people came in… very clearly Japanese business men. They had their suit on and it was their end of day. Hard work. They came there to have their evening together. Every time someone would walk in, they’d see the regulars at this bar, and they think “hey, there’s a foreigner”. And I got that sense very strongly. Obviously you and I felt very weird there. So after one drink we got out and left, eventually.  

Kaho Koda: He added, it wasn’t that we were not welcome there but we just clearly didn’t belong there. 

It’s true. All these older men in business suits and us wearing sweaters and jeans, looking like tourists. Well, we were tourists. 

Rutger: The one thing that the Japanese people are praised for, is their ability to produce high quality stuff. High quality service, high quality stuff. What they make, they make it well. Whatever they do, they always do it better. I feel, at least.  

Kaho Koda: Rutger’s saying that the Japanese pursue high quality products and services. And that’s also the case at this whiskey bar.

Rutger: Whatever that a bartender is supposed to do, he does it to the best of his ability. And this bar was clearly meant for regulars who come at the end of the day who have their drinks together… and cigarettes. That’s his purpose, that’s the one thing he does. And he does that very well. He probably knows all the drinks and knows what to make. That is what he’s set up for and what he strives for. What he wakes up to every day. 

And then I walk in. This stupid foreigner who wants to have an experience. What do you do with that? How do you… it doesn’t fit into the world, right? I’m on a holiday. I’m there for the experience, right? But there’s other people living their lives. My experience intrudes in their lives, basically. 

I think it’s also beautiful that this one establishment does this one thing and does this very well. And caters to the niche that they’re in and not to anything else. I think there’s also beauty in that. 

Kaho Koda: Today I want to discuss Kyoto and tourism in Japan.

First, let’s look at other foreign tourists’ experiences – the good and the bad. And later, we’ll look at it from the Japanese point of view – their frustration towards tourists. 

FOREIGN TOURISTS’ POINT OF VIEW

Kaho Koda: I want to start off by talking about how Kyoto is so different from other cities. I’ll let the internationals explain the uniqueness of Kyoto.

First off, let’s start in the bigger context – comparing the east and west of Japan. Here’s Rutger. 

Rutger: When we were in Tokyo, the waiters were very polite and very apologetic. Versus Kyoto where people were way more laid back. They were a bit louder. Very different atmosphere I guess. Way more outspoken. They’re louder. 

Kaho Koda: Rutger felt that people in the west were friendlier and easier to approach compared to people in the east. We separate the two as Kansai (that’s the west – Kyoto, Osaka are cities you may know) and Kanto (that’s the east – So Tokyo).

Lizzie also felt the difference between the east and west. She currently lives in the Kansai area, so the west, but she also lived in Tokyo for a short period of time. She’s from London.

Lizzie: Tokyo just feels a little soulless to me, which might be a bit harsh. It’s a really cool place to visit. It’s very like city anonymous commuting type of place. 

Kansai is friendlier in some ways. But in other ways… I don’t know if ‘ruder’ is the right word, but less uptight about the manners – not that that’s not there. But compared to Tokyo, on the one hand it means that they’re more open and friendly, but also, not going to feel embarrassed about staring at you. 

Kaho Koda: Rutger, my boyfriend, also mentioned all of the staring. He said he felt a lot of stares in both Tokyo and Kyoto. He’s a gaijin, and not that foreigners are uncommon in Japan, but Japanese people still stare. And in Tokyo, when he stared back at the person who was staring, they would quickly look away as if to pretend they were not looking in the first place. But when he visited Kyoto, he realized that people in Kyoto just kept staring. And he stared back, like a staring contest. He found it funny and interesting that there was such a contrast.  

Japanese people always mention the difference in personality between Kansai and Kanto. 

The classic example that a Japanese person gives when explaining the difference between the two regions is this. 

Let’s say you’re on a busy street and you trip and fall over. And it’s very clear that you’re gonna be okay. 

In the east, so in a city like Tokyo, people will pretend they don’t see you. They walk around you. They pretend you didn’t fall.. As if you don’t exist. They pretend because they know it’s embarrassing to fall so they quickly look away.

On the contrary, if you were in the west, so like Osaka or Kyoto for example, a couple people would rush towards you and help you up while they crack jokes like, “oh my gosh, are you okay? You need to watch where you’re going!” They joke and they keep it light.

Kansai, the west, is more approachable and friendlier whereas Kanto, the east, is a big city where you’re more anonymous, a little cold. 

And it’s not just the east and west that have personality differences. Even in the same Kansai area, there can be a massive difference between two prefectures. 

Here’s Erik talking about it:

Erik: I had never seen such a massive change in character between people. And in Osaka, during the time I was there, people would joke about that. 

Kaho Koda: Erik is Dutch and he grew up in a small town in the Netherlands. He used to live in Osaka and Tokyo. When he lived in Osaka, people from Osaka would say the following: 

Erik: From Osaka people, I was told that they are the warmest people. And that Kyoto people are the coldest people. 

Kaho Koda: Osaka is located southwest of Kyoto. The two prefectures have a friendly rivalry going on. It’s a thing.

I’ve mentioned this in previous episodes – Japan is a homogenous country. 98% of the population are Japanese citizens. 

If you do not look Japanese or Asian, you stand out. Rutger, Erik, and Lizzie are white. They do not look ‘Japanese’ at all. They are foreigners, 外人, in Japanese. You probably heard me use this word earlier in this episode. 

I asked internationals what their experiences were like traveling through Japan. Of course there’s both good and bad. Let’s start with the good.

Overall, Rana had a positive experience. Rana is an Asian Canadian woman, born and raised in Montreal, Canada, from a Chinese and Canadian household. I will add that her bicultural looks make her ethnically ambiguous. In early 2020, she visited Japan so I asked her if she was ever denied service at a restaurant. 

Rana: No, it didn’t happen to me. I think I was privileged to either have people around me who spoke the language or maybe I just sat down and opened up my google translate. 

Kaho Koda: She spoke about a time she went into a tiny gyoza restaurant in Kobe. Kobe is an hour away from Kyoto by train. And it’s a part of Kansai, the west.

She said that the gyoza restaurant had a counter with 6 seats. 2 women were making the food behind the counter. There were three men who were there and they understood English – they helped her out. She said that it was not so great communication but so welcoming. And she remembers it as a heartwarming story. 

Rana: When I stepped into that restaurant, they were terrified. But you know, as soon as you pull out a book or pull out a translation app, it really does help. And people were open to that. As long as you are receptive and clock into how people are feeling about it. That is my privileged experience. I don’t think everyone has that. 

Kaho Koda: In addition, she mentioned that everywhere she went, everyone spoke to her in Japanese. They didn’t try to speak in English. She liked that.

Rana: I appreciate it! I think that it’s super important because I am coming to your country. Why should it be that you have to interact in a different language? It should be me. I should be the one translating to be able to communicate with you. I am coming to your country. The fact that I am privileged to be here. I should be respectful to your culture. 

Kaho Koda: She believes that as a visitor to the country, she shouldn’t expect Japanese people to speak in English to her. Instead she should try her best to communicate in Japanese. Whether it be through Google translate or gestures, at least she has to try. That’s how she feels. 

And here’s Michele also from Montreal, Canada. She told me about a time when she was visiting Kawasaki – that’s in the Kanto area, east Japan.  

Michele: My first time in Tokyo, I was with a couple of friends and we went to Kawasaki to this cool arcade at 7 in the morning because we were jetlagged. We ended up talking to this local when we were done playing all these games. “Do you have any ramen places to recommend?” “Oh yeah, come into my car, I’ll take you with me…

Kaho Koda: She was slightly worried, but she was with three male friends so she was comfortable enough to get in the car.. She’s also tall and strong. 

Michele: He ended up driving us out to Chiba and the ramen shop he wanted to take us was closed, so he brought us to Chiba. And he showed us all the views. And then put 1000 yen into the vending machine. “Buy whatever you want!” And he took such good care of us. Afterwards when we finally got to the restaurant we treated him. He was just so sweet and so kind. It was unlike anything that I’d ever experienced before. 

Kaho Koda: Japan is a relatively safe country… But this is not something I recommend you to do…. I’m happy Michele had a wonderful experience… But listeners… Please be safe. 

But it’s not just pleasant experiences… Now we need to address the not so great experiences. 

Lizzie told me about what happened at an onsen. 

An onsen is a hot spring. Onsens are everywhere in Japan because there’s so many volcanoes. And usually onsens are huge baths where you bathe with other people – unless you get a private room with an onsen. It’s often gendered: male or female. And you just take a bath with other people staying at the hotel. As someone who went on many onsen trips with my family, I’m used to seeing different kinds of naked bodies. 

Anyway, Lizzie explained what happens to her and her international friends when they visit an onsen. 

Lizzie:  In onsens, we call this the “Gaijin effect” and I can’t really be mad about it. Wherever I go to an onsen and there are more than two of us, as soon as we get into the bath, give it five minutes and all the Japanese people will get out. They’ll all leave. And it’s one of those things where you’re like “I’m not dirty” but on the other hand, you’re like “well now I have the bath to myself” so I don’t know if I can be mad about that. 

The phrase that people use is micro-aggression? I think that’s what it’s called. Again, I’m kind of glad I got to experience them because.. to be brutally honest, I’m a small white girl and I don’t experience a lot of that in England. There are other things that are no way to the level but I hope it’s given me more of an understanding about being treated differently based on your appearance. And I only experience a small amount of that. 

Kaho Koda: Apparently this happens in other places too. Erik told me what happens on the train. 

Erik: I’m not a Japanese person. But it would be nice to be treated with a little bit more respect than people tend to do. Whether knowingly or unknowingly. 

You know the classic example in Japan. You’re sitting on the crowded train but you’re a foreigner and everyone is standing up. Not sitting next to you. And I hate to say it, but it’s happened to me so many times. And I have absolutely no idea what’s going on in the minds of the people that look at me and think “Oh, it’s a foreigner. I will make the conscious decision not to sit next to them although the train is already quite crowded”. 

Kaho Koda: He acknowledged that in the beginning, he thought he wouldn’t be bothered by it, but reflecting on it now, talking about it in this interview, Erik recognized that he was bothered by it. 

Erik: Because it’s the lack of understanding for other people. They don’t consider others’ feelings. Or at least foreigner’s feelings. Because how I experienced this at least is that Japanese people are maybe overconsiderate in many cases. But not for foreigners. Not always for foreigners, I believe.  

Kaho Koda: But Erik also understands that he never experienced the worst. He’s a good kind of foreigner. I’ll let him explain what he means by that. 

Erik: I also have some friends who are people of color. They joke about the fact that I am a ‘good’ foreigner. Being white. Obviously I can’t judge how they have perceived everything. But I think that’s also an important part to just mention that if you are white in Japan and a foreigner, you are treated differently, yes… but it can be worse, even. 

Obviously white people are privileged around the globe. And that shouldn’t be the case. That’s the climate that we live in at the moment and hopefully the world will come to its senses at one point. And stop that. 

It must be so hard for people of color in Japan… Yeah, and I can’t imagine. I just thought that it was worth mentioning. My experience is still the ‘better’ foreign interaction.   

Kaho Koda: Erik brings up an important point. The experiences of people of color who live in Japan. That in itself is a big topic to address, so I’d like to dedicate a future episode. 

As a foreign tourist, there are beautiful and unique moments that you get to experience with the locals. Some locals love to feed you and some want to help you out. But unfortunately, you may experience some microaggression, as a gaijin, a foreigner.  

Next up: the Japanese perspective. Right after the break. 

Hey guys, writer and host, Kaho here. Thanks for listening to episode 5 of Controversial Japan! If you’ve enjoyed the podcast so far, please help us out by purchasing our merch. When you buy a cute totebag or a tshirt, we get to continue producing more episodes for you to enjoy. Go to shop.humanburrito.com  And thanks for your support! 

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: You’ve heard the internationals speak. Now I want to get into how Japanese people perceive Kyoto. And how Kyoto perceives foreign tourists. 

Ayumi is a Japanese woman who studies illustration in London. She’s from Tokyo and she said that she views Kyoto as similar to England. 

Ayumi: 京都人のイメージ。そうね、なんか。。。

Kaho Koda: According to Ayumi, Kyoto has a unique atmosphere. And it’s quite an exclusive city. People from Kyoto are not too fond of people who are not from Kyoto. A bit of a snob. Just like in London, tradition and custom are very important in Kyoto. She added that it’s also true that there are many people from Kanto, East Japan, who find Kyoto ‘cool’. Like me, I’ve always admired Kyoto。

And that’s the image from a Japanese person from Tokyo. A generalization, of course, but there’s some truth to it. 

I want to focus on the exclusivity of Kyoto – specifically in the hospitality industry. In Gion, restaurants and traditional tea houses have carried on its tradition for more than 350 years. One tradition being「一見さんお断り」. The concept translates to “we don’t accept first time customers”. It’s like an exclusive club that requires you to have a membership. These high end restaurants and tea houses value quality of service over quantity. 

There’s a built trust between the tea houses and their regular customers. It’s considered inappropriate to discuss payment at the location so the customers receive their bills later. And there’s the trust that they’ll always pay because they always do – they’re regulars. In addition, hostesses and maikos live in these tea houses. It’s unsafe to let strangers into their own home. On the flip side, regulars are trusted by the tea houses. 

Rutger: I think it’s also beautiful that this one establishment does this one thing and does this very well. And caters to the niche that they’re in and not to anything else. I think there’s also beauty in that. 

Kaho Koda: That was Rutger again from the main story. He sees the 「一見さんお断り」 “we don’t accept first time customers” as a wonderful thing. However, some Japanese people find this rule of 「一見さんお断り」. “we don’t accept first time customers” to be snobby. But it’s also a tradition that has worked for more than three centuries. 

So when I talked about how Rutger and I were rejected at the restaurant to my parents, they weren’t in shock or anything. They referred to this idea of rejecting first time customers…「一見さんお断り」and told me to get over it. 

Ayumi: なんだろうね、最近やっぱり外国人が。。。

Kaho Koda: Ayumi visited Kyoto roughly three years ago. It was a solo trip and she was looking for a calming environment. She already knew it was going to be busy so she booked non-touristy places. But she said that there were so many foreign tourists. Lots of tour buses with flags. She didn’t enjoy the big crowds. 

Kaho Koda: Ayumi said that Kyoto is supposed to be quiet and calm… There’s 風情. 風情 means the atmosphere you feel. It can be in nature. A beautiful view. The elegance of something. Zen. Kyoto has that atmosphere, or supposed to. But with too many foreign tourists the atmosphere has changed. 

She spoke with an old Japanese man in Kyoto. He didn’t enjoy the gaijins, the foreign tourists.  

Ayumi:現地の京都のおじさんと話す機会があって。。。

Kaho Koda: He said, “Tourists leave trash behind and they’re so loud. It’s annoying. No respect. No manners“.

From the old Japanese man’s perspective, he categorizes all foreign tourists as gaijin, foreign tourists. It doesn’t matter which country or culture they are from. They’re just not Japanese and therefore don’t understand what he thinks is basic manners. 

Let me get into it a little bit. One of the core concepts in Japan, as a collectivist culture, is「他人に迷惑をかけない」meaning, “Don’t bother others”. From a young age, children are expected to be quiet on public transportation. You have to be considerate of others around you. And in school, there are clean-up times every day. Students clean the classrooms, hallways, toilets, and the entire school as part of education. There are no janitors that clean up after the children. 

It’s also important to note that there are very few garbage cans in public spaces in Japan. People are expected to bring home their own trash. And it’s not always the case, but generally speaking, Japanese people clean up after themselves. 

Japanese people value the idea of “Don’t bother others”. So imagine, all these foreign tourists with various cultural backgrounds visit the supposed-to-be calm and zen Kyoto. Different cultural backgrounds mean that norms, manners, and etiquette vary as well. It’s not good or bad, that’s just how it is. And add a lot of tourists to this situation. 

From the old man’s point of view, these people are loud and are inconsiderate of others. In a way, where the foreigners come from doesn’t really matter. They’re just not Japanese. Japan, the homogenous country, has a strong national characteristic and if you don’t fit into it, you’re a gaijin, a foreigner. That’s the distinction – you are either Japanese or you are not… 

We’ll explore this concept in a future episode. 

Going back to tourism in Kyoto. There are other issues to note. 

Many gaijins want to take beautiful photos of maikos in the Gion area. Maikos wear traditional kimono and wear Japanese makeup. It’s the Japanese aesthetic. And so many gaijins just run after maikos to get the perfect shot. Some even walk into private properties. Taking photos without permission is rude and disrespectful. Often the media shows a crowd of gaijins running after and surrounding the maikos. These maikos, they’re 15 to 20 year old ladies. 

And when many tourists take the bus to visit historical landmarks, the locals can’t get on the bus. There’s just too many tourists who take up physical space. 

But let’s also keep in mind that Kyoto wanted tourists. Back in 2017 the Kyoto mayor signed off on permitting construction of high-end hotels in residential areas, which led to an increase in hotel construction. Now the locals are struggling to find vacant office buildings and homes. 

In recent years, the number of tourists that visit Kyoto exceeds 50 million per year. In the past five years, the number of foreign tourists has quadrupled – of course this figure is pre-covid 19.  

Fall of 2019, the Kyoto city Tourism Association announced a new initiative to revisit how tourism can work in Kyoto. They wanted to rebrand ‘tourism’ to reflect high-end hospitality. They hosted a seminar on how to market towards wealthy tourists and many from the hospitality industry attended. 

For his re-election campaign in 2020, the mayor of Kyoto emphasized that “Kyoto was not a city meant for tourism”. He wanted to focus on re-building a sustainable Kyoto where tourists and locals could co-exist. He had plans to expand public transportation for locals. And he was re-elected for his fourth term.

And we know what happened right after. Covid 19 hit. 

Patrick: At that time when I went in August, it was not crowded at all. Neither Japanese nor foreigners. We went to the imperial palace and you can imagine, there’s a big plaza. There’d only be like three people in total in the entire plaza. It was actually possible to take photos of the building without people in it. It was really eerily empty. 

Kaho Koda: That’s Patrick. He’s first generation Thai American and he teaches English in Japan. Back in August 2020 he took a small trip to Kyoto – he lives in the Kansai area so it’s closeby. He said that restaurants were open at the time of his visit, but it still felt post-apocalyptic. 

Like other tourism dependent cities, Kyoto is struggling through the global pandemic. Kyoto has shifted its focus to catering to Japanese tourists for domestic travel. But the reality is harsh.

The city has gone through multiple periods of state of emergency alerts since the pandemic started and many businesses have closed their doors. Compared to 2019, there was a 60% decrease in the number of people who stayed at hotels in Kyoto.

TAKE AWAY

Kaho Koda: Some foreign tourists are not delighted with the treatment they get from the Japanese during their stay. And some Japanese are frustrated with the inconsiderate crowds of foreign tourists.  

Rutger: I’m on a holiday. I’m there for the experience, right? But there are other people living their lives. My experience just intrudes in their lives, basically.

Kaho Koda: And then there are some who are not bothered, like Rutger. Everyone has their own unique experience and therefore interpretation. 

But as a Japanese individual, I go back to that night at the bar in Kyoto with the Australian couple. To the question, “Am I rejected because I’m black?” 

As someone who knows what it feels like to be rejected in other countries, I can’t help but think: Japan can do better. 

Have you ever traveled to Kyoto? Next time you visit Japan, would you interpret the situation differently? Would you act differently? 

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Rutger Wink, Lizzie, Rana Liu, Michele Day, Ayumi Yanagi, Patrick Phan, and anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com. 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time. 

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Fanny: I feel like it’s almost harder for a woman to be supported by other women in Japan to some extent because I don’t think it’s a common idea that Japanese women want to change their conditions for themselves. 

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores Feminism in Japan.  

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Fanny is a French woman living in Tokyo. She was born and raised in France and she never really had a fascination towards Japan. She joked in our interview that moving to Japan was quite random. During her bachelor’s, she knew she wanted to go overseas and since her university had a euro-Asia program, she decided to do a double degree with a Japanese university. And that’s how she moved to Japan.

She currently works for a French start-up company located in Tokyo, in the energy sector. And… wow, she explained how she got there, and I was impressed. She’s killing it!

Fanny joined her French company when they wanted to open their first branch in Japan. She spent a few months in Paris to get to know the business and she worked closely with a Japanese team. 

Fanny: When people ask me “When did you learn the most Japanese?” “When did you get the most fluent in Japanese?” It’s actually this four months in France with this Japanese team. Because it was for work and this was the first time that I really needed to be speaking and needed to understand what they were saying. Funny enough, I think my Japanese improved the most when I was in France with this Japanese team.

Kaho Koda: After she finished her training in Paris, Fanny moved back to Tokyo. It started with her renting a co-working space and working alone. But one by one, she hired Japanese employees and a year ago, they moved into their own office in downtown Shibuya. Now she has about a dozen employees working for the Japanese branch. 

Since her job is in the energy sector, her clients are big utility companies. And in the early days of the Japanese branch, when she was working solo, she basically had to convince these big utility companies to partner with her company. 

Fanny: When I first came back here alone, I had to meet some potential partners and try to convince them to work with us. And maybe two or three times… so we’re first exchanging emails and I write my name in katakana or romaji. So that partners wouldn’t necessarily know if ‘Fanny’ is a male or female name. And I remember two or three times arriving at the office and it’s just so funny that they would say straight away – they would just tell me in Japanese, “Oh I thought you would be a man.” And it’s just so… I wouldn’t say innocent, but it’s just so natural for them to say so. They can’t even think that it would be shocking to say that straight away. 

Kaho Koda: She proved to the potential partners that she had what it takes and eventually signed them on as clients. She said that she had absolutely no issues with the partners. And it was actually rewarding for her to convince them to work with her company. She’s proud of that, and yeah I’m impressed. She is such a boss! But then again, Fanny understands that her being French, an international, in other words, not Japanese, could have been a factor. She said that if she were a Japanese woman, it could have been harder to convince them.  

Feminism is a topic that she often discusses with her Japanese boyfriend. It first came up early in their relationship. 

Fanny said that he paid for everything during their first couple of dates. And she was getting uncomfortable to be treated all the time. And so one evening, she said she was going to the bathroom and paid the bill in secret. And he got upset. 

Fanny: I remember doing this and I remember him being really shocked and not really understanding. “Oh did I do something bad? Do you not want to see me anymore?” Like, no on the contrary, I appreciate being with you but I don’t want you to be treating me all of the time. I want to show you that I’m also an independent person. And that you don’t have to care for me so much, all of the time. 

Kaho Koda: Fanny explained that he had a specific image when it came to romantic relationships. The man has to pay for everything. He explained to her that his mom never paid anything before she married his dad. A bit of an extreme example, but that’s what he was expecting for his relationship as well.

Now, a couple years later, he appreciates Fanny paying her share. They love having discussions. Like the topic of Feminism. At the very beginning though, he didn’t quite understand the concept of feminism itself…

Fanny: He was not introduced or a fan of the concept of Feminism. What it means, what it is, and what it represents. And I think just by prejudice, he was reluctant to listen about it or know about it because for him – it sounds almost aggressive to him. “The women that are shouting at me and telling me what to do, that sounds painful.”

Kaho Koda: Fanny explained to him the qualities that he liked about her – that was a part of “Feminism” that he claimed to dislike. They pay rent equally. They divide chores around the house. He cooks more than she does, because according to Fanny, she’s not the best cook. He loves how independent and strong she is…

Fanny: It is funny to try and explain to him. I was kind of shocked at how the first image that he had of this word ‘Feminism’ and this idea was so negative. “Oh that sounds like something really bad” kind of reaction at first. 

Kaho Koda: Even in the western world, the fight for gender equality is ongoing. There are progressive countries out there, but there’s still so much work to do. 

But in Japan, Fanny had to start with defining the word ‘feminism’. 

Fanny also thinks that it’s not just the men who are reluctant to change… It’s actually also the women. 

Fanny:Talking to some Japanese women I realize that Japanese people, young people around me, don’t necessarily want the situation to change actually. Kind of like… they don’t enjoy or don’t appreciate women who are trying to be different or trying to stand up for changes. Or criticising Japanese society. I feel like it’s almost harder for a woman to be supported by other women in Japan to some extent because I don’t think it’s a common idea that Japanese women want to change their conditions for themselves.

Kaho Koda: Fanny is saying that it’s not just the men who are uncomfortable with Feminism. Some women are too. And they don’t want the situation to change. 

Today I want to discuss Feminism in Japan.

First, let’s dig a little further and investigate why some Japanese women don’t support Feminism. And later, we’ll get into other factors that deter gender equality. 

(SOME) JAPANESE WOMEN’S PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: First off, I want to introduce the word 女子力 (jyoshi ryoku). Have you ever heard of this word before?

女子力 directly translates to ‘girl power’. 

You might think, “Oh, that’s a great word to describe Feminism! Girl Power! Yeah!”. 

Here’s Natsumi discussing the word. 

Natsumi: I really dislike the way that 女子力 is used in Japan. So 女子力, If you just look at the characters, it actually means ‘girl power’ right? So completely different thing in the western world. You know, standing up from themselves, doing what they want. You know.. All of that. Whereas in Japan, it’s basically qualities to become a good housewife, I think. Is my view on it.

Kaho Koda: There are many ways to explain 女子力, girl power. But having a high level of 女子力, means you possess traits of a beautiful Japanese women. Some are physical characteristics and some are, I agree with Natsumi, qualities of a good housewife. Here are some examples of having 女子力. 

Wearing a feminine outfit and looking beautiful. A skinny physique. Getting your nails done. Having gorgeous hair. Good at cleaning. Cooking a delicious meal.. 

Natsumi: I enjoy cooking for myself. Well, for people too. I enjoy it because I like to eat good food. So many people told me in high school, “Oh oh my gosh you like cooking, you have good 女子力, 女子力高いね”Right? And then “You’re gonna be such a good wife.” Im not cooking to become a good wife! I’m cooking because I want to eat good food for myself and give people good food. Not necessarily because I see becoming a good wife and cooking well as my end goal, right? But every single time “I like cooking” “Oh my gosh, wife material!”  

Kaho Koda: The term 女子力 is supposed to be a compliment. When people say it out loud, it’s usually with good intention. And not having 女子力, girl power, is supposed to be an insult.

女子力, girl power, was a buzz word back in 2009. And the words are used frequently amongst women. 

I’m also guilty of using the word 女子力 amongst my female friends back in high school. We would say that about ourselves, like, “Ugh, I have split ends in my hair… I need to increase my 女子力 and go to a hair salon asap”. 

Natsumi: You need to be a certain way to be a good female, be a good wife. You feel like “that should be my end goal. That is where my life is leading me to” and It’s very limiting.

Kaho Koda: Magazines bombard teenagers with titles like “How to increase your 女子力”. And multiple media sources tell you to increase your 女子力 by wearing trendy outfits and behaving girly. Hair removal ads, diet pills, and breast enhancement bras. The common narrative is “By using this product, you can look good for your boyfriend!” That kind of ad actually exists, by the way. 

Some teenagers believe it. I believed it. We follow it and obsess over it. And when we see a friend looking great, we compliment by saying “Wow, you have so much 女子力, girl power” 

At a certain point, it unconsciously became my goal when I was a teen. I wanted to look good and feel good. To have 女子力. To have quote on quote, girl power. 

Natsumi: It’s a very supporting role function. What it embodies. That’s what I dislike. The cooking isn’t supporting, but it’s providing for people. It sounds silly but having tissues and a handkerchief on you all of the time. Being able to support people in need. It’s not you going out to do something for yourself. Like you would think when you hear ‘Girl Power’. It’s being able to care for people, provide for people.

Kaho Koda: The ideal Japanese woman makes delicious meals. She won’t talk back. She’s understanding. She’s beautiful. She’s calm. She supports her husband…

Fanny: He was not introduced or a fan of the concept of Feminism. What it means, what it is, and what it represents. 

Kaho Koda: Here’s Fanny from our main story again, talking about her Japanese boyfriend.

Fanny: he was reluctant to listen about it or know about it because for him – it sounds almost aggressive to him. “The women that are shouting at me and telling me what to do, that sounds painful.”

Kaho Koda: When a Japanese man thinks of ‘Feminism’, they imagine women who are screaming for gender equality. They are loud. Too loud. Unladylike. They’re not calm. They’re threatening… A woman who stands for Feminism, who stands for gender equality, is the opposite of the ideal Japanese woman. 

I interviewed someone who struggled with this image of the ideal Japanese woman. 

Kaho Koda: Eri went to an all girls’ school. Because all her peers were female, she didn’t experience the gender divide until she got to university. 

In a Japanese university, it’s common to join a サークル (circle), basically an extracurricular activity. And Eri joined the tennis club. The サークル is not just meant for a specific activity. Obviously they play tennis as the tennis club, but the club also plans get-togethers, drinks, and outings. Joining these kinds of clubs is a way for university students to make friends with common interests. 

Eri recounted the tennis club getaway weekend she went to. After playing tennis and being active all day, she was hungry. She stood up for seconds after she finished her first serving. And when she stood up, she felt the other females glaring at her. 

Eri: When we had dinner or lunch, every time we eat, I wanted to eat more. Because the food that we had was really really good. And then the moment I would stand up to get an extra bowl of rice or something, all the other girls around me… They would look at me with these eyes saying like, “What are you doing?” And it’s this peer pressure that you have amongst girls. We’re girls and we’re delicate, fragile, and we don’t really eat a lot. We’re cute” you know that kind of stuff. I was kind of breaking that harmony that they were creating all together. But I wanted to eat more and I was hungry and… it’s just simple things like these but I think that these simple actions that I do or say would break the harmony of a lot of people. It kind of destroys their peace. 

Kaho Koda: She wasn’t conforming to the ideal Japanese woman role. She was breaking the harmony. In episode 1 we talked about 協調性, meaning being cooperative and harmonious. It’s a desirable personality trait in Japan and that concept applies here too. 

She said that she was breaking the harmony or the illusion of ‘ladies with a small appetite’ that her female friends were creating in front of the men. She became self aware with whatever she did or said. She said it started to feel suffocating and she wanted to know why her female friends conformed to their “ideal Japanese woman” roles. 

Eri: So then I asked a lot of my girl friends. “Why do you do this and that?” For example, “Aren’t you hungry? Don’t you want to eat more?” “You don’t like heels. Why do you wear heels?” At first, they would all say, “Because everyone is doing it” and then I would ask “Why do you think everyone is doing it?” And then they’d be like “Well isn’t it scary to stand out?” Also at the end, a lot of people would actually say that they want to be noticed by the certain guys that they like. They’re sure that the guys would like more of the cute feminine girls. So in order to please them, or in order to speak to the guys, they feel that they need to be more feminine, more cute. And that’s why they just kind of put themselves in that position. So that was the biggest findings that I had as a freshman in university. That was really upsetting. 

Kaho Koda: Remember, Japan is a collectivist culture where people like to belong in a community. What the community thinks outweighs what the individual wants. In a society shaped like so, it’s terrifying to stand out – so you blend in with the crowd. Rather than showing you have a big appetite, you don’t ask for seconds. 

Eri’s demeanor was threatening the other women. She lacked 女子力, girl power. They didn’t appreciate her breaking the harmony. 

This was upsetting for Eri…. But it didn’t end there. 

Next up: other factors that hinder gender equality: tradition and etiquette. 

Right after the break. 

Hi guys, writer & host, Kaho here. Thanks for listening to episode 4 of Controversial Japan! If you’ve enjoyed the podcast so far, please help us out by purchasing our merch. When you buy a cute totebag or a tshirt, we can continue to produce more episodes for you to enjoy. Go to shop.humanburrito.com  And thanks for your support! 

OTHER FACTORS

Kaho Koda: Of course, other women are not the only factors that hinder gender equality. Tradition and etiquette also come into play. 

Eri told me about a tradition in the tennis club. 

The baseball game with a rival university is one of the events that the entire university takes pride in. So even if a student is not that interested in baseball, it’s an event that students go to, for fun. The evening before this big baseball match, the tennis club has an evening planned. A tradition.

Eri: There’s a tradition in the tennis circle where the guys would go for a run around the Imperial Palace I think. 皇居ラン。And then after that they would do a sports all nighter. スポッチャオール。It’s like a guy thing apparently. 

Kaho Koda: The Imperial Palace in the heart of Tokyo has a big park. All the men go for a run around the park and later they head to this big entertainment facility. And there’s a bunch of fun activities you can do there: tennis, golf, soccer, trampoline, darts, table tennis, bowling, karaoke, kickboxing, archery, frisbee, roller skating… the list goes on and on. They have multiple locations all over Japan and some are open all night depending on the day of the week. Anyway, the men have fun at this entertainment facility all night long and without sleep, they head on to the big baseball game. Sounds fun, right? 

In the meantime, what do the women do? 

Eri: And then while they do that the girls are supposed to make bento boxes for all of the people in the club coming to the baseball match the next day. 

Kaho Koda: While the men are having a blast playing all kinds of sports, the first year women make lunches for everyone. Eri explained that there were ten females in her year who had to make bento boxes for fifty to sixty people overnight. And she didn’t want to do that… 

Eri: I wanted to join the sports all nighter because I thought it would be so fun. Some of my guy friends wanted to join in for the cooking because they like cooking and they wanted to chat, have fun casually making food.

Kaho Koda: Eri and her male friends decided that they wanted to talk to their senpai about it. Senpai – we talked about this term in episode 1 in the work environment, but in this context, the term refers to her seniors in the tennis club. 

Eri: We brought this up to our senpai. Everyone told us that we’re not allowed to change. We have to stick to what roles we’re given. Because it’s tradition. They were like, “It’s been like this for 51 years! So you can’t change tradition it. It’s disrespect to our alumni.”

Kaho Koda: The men play sports and the women cook all night before the big game – It’s been like this for more than fifty years. It’s tradition. We need to honor the tradition because breaking it is disrespectful to the alumni, to the senpais that came before them… It’s tradition. 

Eri was furious and in the end, decided not to join the bento box group, but her male friends joined the other women in the kitchen. She didn’t have the courage to go against her senpais or the tradition. She said she didn’t like it but she also didn’t want to create friction either. 

She said that the accumulation of these events made her realize that Japan was not the best place for her.. She left. She lives in Denmark now. 

Tradition and etiquette also exist in the workplace. 

I spoke with Sanhi, a Korean woman who works in a Japanese company. She’s lived in Japan since age 4, so she told me she has more of a Japanese mindset.  

Work wise, she believes that she doesn’t face any gender inequality. “Maybe when I have kids and go on maternity leave, it might be different, but for now, I think we’re treated equally”.

But then, she told me what bothers her outside of the office. Something that happens over drinks with her colleagues and bosses after work. 

Sanhi: お仕事だけを見たらないんだけど、飲み会とか？最初の方とかは結構。。。

Kaho Koda: Before I get into what Sanhi said, I need to explain the seating arrangement at the restaurant. It’s important to note this. The idea of 上座, the upper end of the table, and 下座, the lower end of the table. Hierarchy in the Japanese office is also evident in the seating arrangement at a restaurant. 

In the upper end of the table, called 上座, the bosses and senpais sit. These seats are further away from the entrance and are considered comfortable seats. The younger newcomers in the office sit at the lower end of the table, called 下座. It’s near the entrance or the most convenient place to make orders. In Japan, it’s customary for 1 person to order various dishes for a big group because dishes are usually shared. You get to try a bit of everything.

When the office workers arrive at the restaurant, they naturally sit according to what year they entered into the company. According to the hierarchy. If you’re the boss or senpai in the group, you make your way to the 上座, the upper end, and if you’re new to the company, you sit toward the 下座, the lower end. 

Sanhi: 同期の男の子達がいても、何故か私がお酒をついだり。。

Kaho Koda: Sanhi told me that no one really tells you outright about the seating arrangements. But as a new employee, you follow what your senpai teaches you and it happened somewhat naturally. At her first big get together after work, a female senpai taught her how to order. Her female senpai gave Sanhi tips on how to order for a big group. And she followed what her female senpai taught her to do. 

She thought it was weird. She looked around the table and noticed how gendered the seating was. Of course it’s not a clear divide. The female bosses also sit at the upper end. But when she looked at her male colleagues, so the men who entered the company the same time as she did, so they are equals, they were sitting closer to the upper end of the table, where the senpais and bosses were seated, while all the females were sitting at the lower end to order food. The women were the ones to top off drinks. Her male colleagues didn’t do that. She emphasized that it’s not coerced, more so, that’s what the atmosphere is at her office. It’s what’s expected.. 

Sanhi: それはちょっと違和感があって。。。

Kaho Koda: She explained that there was a sense of discomfort. She didn’t like it. She realized that the men were not taught how to order, it was just the women. She told me she googled it back then to learn why it was so gendered. And she read that these things were good manners. It’s etiquette for the women to order food and to top off everyone’s drinks. 

I looked it up too. I found blogs from quote on quote ‘etiquette coaches’ – yes in case you’re wondering, these titles exist in Japan. They give lectures and workshops on etiquette in the workplace and everyday life. 

Anyway, I read different articles. And many of them state that the seating arrangement is to show respect to your bosses and senpais. It’s the respect to the hierarchy. It didn’t talk about the gender divide… until I found an etiquette blog post specifically for women. 

In the seating section of the blogpost, it says “Unless you are the boss of the entire group, as a woman, you should sit towards the 下座 (i.e. the lower end of the table). This doesn’t mean that women are inferior to men, it’s just that it’s easier to order at the lower end and it’s easier to get to the washroom.”. 

Women are not inferior to men, but women have to order food and look out for the group while the male colleagues become more and more acquainted with their bosses and senpais. 

TAKE AWAY

Kaho Koda: The ideal Japanese woman with good housewife qualities is a narrative that is kept alive amongst females. And in a conservative country like Japan where people love to continue with tradition, change doesn’t happen so fast. 

Chikako:やっぱり、最近は働きたいっていう女の人が本当に増えてるから。。。

Kaho Koda: Chikako, who works at a prestigious Japanese publishing company in Tokyo, said that at this moment, she doesn’t feel like she’s being treated differently because she’s a woman. But when she looks above, when she looks towards upper management, there are no women. 

She has hope though. Times are changing. It’s slow, but it’s still a change. And we, women in our 20s and 30s, are in the midst of that change. Nowadays it’s getting more and more common for women to continue working after marriage. It’s an option now. It’s possible. 

She reflected that working after marriage was not an option for her mom’s generation. For the baby boomers it was common to leave work and become a housewife. 

She said, “I feel like we’re on the verge of change”. 

Chikako: やっぱり自分でどうやって時間をやりくりして、育児と仕事両方やるかって、すごい個人に委ねられている。 

Kaho Koda: Chikako doesn’t know if her company supports female employees who are mothers. Objectively speaking, she said that it seems like time management depends on the individual. She feels like the company and society won’t necessarily help her. At the end of the day, it’s up to you. 

Chikako’s immediate boss is a working mother. Having a female leader is rare in her company, so she’s thankful. She gets to see first hand that if you want to make it work, you can. But it’s up to you.

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Fanny Berteaud, Natsumi Funabiki, and anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time.

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Terra: Often we are very talented to divert the conversation. Because that’s the way we speak. We don’t directly address on something. But we always kind of divert it.  

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack one controversial opinion about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores how the Japanese society talks about ….  

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Terra is a Japanese storyteller and nature farmer. Right when we started the video call, I could tell that he was a storyteller. He was expressive and his body language during the interview screamed ‘storyteller’. It was like I was watching him perform ‘a bit’ in a good way. 

Terra is Japanese and he’s lived overseas for more than 15 years now. Israel, Germany, and now the Netherlands. 

His first stop overseas was Israel where he studied Theatre & Speech. There, he felt a huge culture shock. He said that Israelis were outspoken and very social. 

Terra: They say everything.. Yeah, they are loud. 

Kaho Koda: Coming from Japan, where modesty and not saying too much are virtuous traits, living in Israel was definitely an adjustment for him. Apparently, Israelis wanted to know every single detail about him. 

Terra: How are you? How’s your life? How’s your mom? How’s your dad? How’s your brother? How’s your sister? Do you have any grandparents and if you do, how they are. How’s your finance? And how’s your future scope? How do you wanna live? How’s your relationship with your girlfriend and how’s your night life? Are you thinking of getting married soon? 

They can shoot all of those questions in one go. 

Kaho Koda: Terra says Israelis pushed him to talk. For instance, when Terra looked like he was worried about something, they wanted to know the entire story from the beginning to the end. They didn’t want a summary of the story. They needed the story in its entirety in order to understand his situation. And after the story was told, they wanted to offer some solutions.

In the beginning, it was a lot for Terra, but he started to enjoy these deep conversations and connections that he made. Because the Japanese are not used to opening up about personal things or being vulnerable, it was a new way of social interaction for him. He compared the two cultures with a saying.

Terra: Even they have a saying. It’s a saying of: we are very honest and we express everything. “We put everything on the table”. In Japan, we are introverts. We are not too… social creatures. As we all know in Japan we have the saying, the same saying as “Sweep everything under the carpet” but “put lid on the stinks”. 

Kaho Koda: “Put a lid on the stinks”, that’s the Japanese proverb that’s equivalent to “sweep something under the carpet”. It means to cover up the issue for the time being, which is not the solution. It doesn’t help in the long run… 

According to Terra, mentioning every small detail and talking about the issue is the Israeli way. Not addressing the issue is the Japanese way.  

After getting used to the Israeli norm of talking about very personal things, he said that interacting with his Japanese friends became harder. For example, the topic of ….

How do Japanese people talk about …? The short answer is: they don’t…  

The controversial statement today is from Terra. You heard it at the beginning of the show.

Terra: Often we are very talented to divert the conversation. Because that’s the way that we speak. We don’t directly address on something. But we always kind of divert it. 

Kaho Koda: When he was back in Japan for a visit, he had a night out with a childhood best friend. His friend was not as expressive as Terra hoped he would be when Terra started to talk about …. 

Terra:  I really struggled with that. It makes me feel awkward all the time. Every time that I try to do that. I’m often portrayed as the “naughty” or “very rude” guy. How dare you asking about this to me? attitude.  

Kaho Koda: Because it’s not the norm to talk about … in Japan, he was portrayed as the naughty guy. And his friends would respond by saying「あー、そうだね」meaning “Right…” Agreeing to him, but also not adding anything of value to the conversation.

Terra: I guess that the best one that I often hear is 「そうだね」and they just leave the blanks as long as they link. Or they immediately divert to something else. Like I’m talking about something and they say “Ohhhh ya she seems nice la la la la la la la la la…” 

Kaho Koda: No one wants to talk about …. 

During the interview, I asked him how he shows love to a significant other. I asked him questions like: Do you say “I love you”? Or do you hug? How do you show that you care?

I noticed that he made a distinction between Japanese women and women who are from other countries. So I asked him why he made that distinction, and he… he hesitated. 

Terra:  Whaaa na, ya, no, yaaaa…  I will consider it. I will consider how the other person reacts…That’s something I will do very carefully first. Like… 

Can I say this word? Let me shoot it. It landed. Good. Maybe I can say this next time. Oh this didn’t land. Okay, God damn, I shouldn’t say that. Okay. Okay. 

Once I manage to make the bridge or break the ice, I’ll just say “Love you” or 「大好きだよ」「愛してるよ」or like I’ll start to adjust it for the ladies.. Yeah.

Sound of a rice cooker in the background. 

Kaho Koda: Wait, was that your rice cooker?

Terra: Sorry? 

Kaho Koda: Was that your rice cooker? 

Terra: Yes. hahaha. Rice cooker is important thing, isn’t it? 

Kaho Koda: That was his rice cooker telling him his rice was ready. My rice cooker sings the same way. 

Anyway, back to what Terra was telling me before. He sounded perplexed. It was as if he wanted to explain why he makes the distinction, but at the same time, he didn’t know what to explain? 

We moved onto a new topic and continued the interview. 

Two weeks after the interview, I received an email from Terra. In the past week he was also trying to find the answer as to why he changed how he expresses love depending on the person of interest. And he realized that there was something that happened between him and his Japanese ex-girlfriend that could be an explanation. And he wanted to tell me about it over email. 

In the beginning of his twenties, he dated a Japanese woman who had trauma. For the two, … was about love and happiness, but also pain. 

They eventually broke up and went their separate ways. He moved onto new relationships and so did she. He left Japan and moved to Israel. They kept in touch. He said he’s the kind of person to keep some form of contact with most of his ex girlfriends. And so that’s what he did with her as well. 

Years passed. And they had a moment to talk over the phone. At this point, he had lived in Israel for a while and was used to having deep honest conversations. And so when he had the opportunity to talk to her, he reflected on their relationship and … life. Personally he thought that he was doing good. One way or another, perhaps this could help her current or future relationships. There was good intention from his end.

But this phone call was the last he heard from her. 

Now, reflecting back on this phone call, he knows he shouldn’t have talked about their … life. It wasn’t his place. 

I understood. Terra lives in a new universe now. A universe where honest and deep conversations are normal and encouraged. And when he briefly steps back into his old universe, Japan, where you’re expected to sweep certain things under the rug, it doesn’t quite work. He unintentionally becomes an alien to his Japanese friends and ex-girlfriend. 

I understand his frustration. When you go back to Japan, you realize how much you’ve changed. You are still Japanese and yet you don’t think or act like a “Japanese”. It’s inevitable when you live outside of Japan where the culture is just so different. It’s bittersweet and frustrating.   

This experience with his ex-girlfriend shaped how he approaches people today. He looks at how the other person responds before making the next step. He’s careful. 

Terra: Often we are very talented to divert the conversation. Because that’s the way that we speak. We don’t directly address on something. But we always kind of divert it.

Kaho Koda: Today I wanna discuss how the Japanese discuss …. Or rather, how the Japanese avoid talking about …. And then later, I want to talk about an expat English teacher who had to navigate that concept in the education sector. But that’s for later. 

For now, let’s talk about how we don’t talk about … in Japan. 

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: So, how do we talk about … in Japan? 

I want to start off by talking about what happens at home. The kind of things parents will say to their child. 

Sachi Lovatt is a Canadian actor. She was born and raised in Canada and her mother is Japanese and her father is British. I asked her if her Japanese mom talked about … to her as a kid. 

Sachi: I think a group of friends who I went to theatre school with, we all kinda went around and told the group how the sitdown about the … talk with our parents went. And I’m like “Well my mom gave me this animated book” And they all had the reaction like you, they all laughed. And only then did I realize “Oh is that weird?”. I didn’t even know! And then  I remember I had a question or I was confused about something and then I tenderly or tentatively brought up the subject to her and she said “Oh, I gave you the book. It’s in the book.” And I’m like “Oh, right. I guess so.” My memory is a little bit clouded but… I don’t remember ever having a … talk with… Definitely not with my dad. That’s out of the question. With my mom, it was the book.  

Kaho Koda: The funny thing is… my mom did the exact same thing. When I was 11 or 12 years old, my mom handed me a picture book. It illustrated the human reproductive system. The journey of the sperm and the egg. There were cute illustrations of a naked man and a woman on top of each other. I didn’t know what it meant but I was somehow scared to ask my mom questions. It just felt wrong to, so I didn’t. 

Also, this book was checked out from the local library. I felt ashamed about it and the book was returned with the other books. I made sure the book was at the bottom of the pile so no one would see what I was returning. 

Anyway, I told Sachi that that’s how my mom had the talk with me. Without talking. 

Sachi: That’s kind of comforting that you had that kind of experience too. Mine was an animated book. It was actually in Japanese as well. I remember little images of sperm swimming. They were really cute.

Kaho Koda: And keep in mind, this is probably not how all families do it. But at least for some, handing a book to your child is one way to do … education at home. 

How does … education look like in school? 

Sanhi and I went to the same middle school and high school. She’s originally from Seoul, South Korea, but has lived in Japan since she was 4 years old. 

I asked her if she remembers the one … education class we had in our first year. We were 13 years old. And she knew exactly what I was talking about. 

It was at the school auditorium with the entire student population, so approximately 1,200 female students – we went to an all girls’ school. So basically all students from the school between the ages 13 and 18 year olds were gathered for the … ed class. What an intimate setting, right? And we watched five different video clips that were projected onto the huge screen. 

She said her memory from it is clouded but remembers one slide from this video.

Sanhi: 覚えてる、覚えてる〜。「　○ックス、ここには何が入るでしょう？」みたいなやつ。

Kaho Koda: The slide had a little quiz on it. In Japanese writing, the sound “○ックス” was written. It had a little bubble that represented 1 character that should go before the “○ックス” sound. The video asked the students,“Can you guess the word? Does it make out the word: Socks? Sax? No, it’s …!”  

She remembered that moment and the embarrassed scream that came after. All the giggles from the 1,200 students watching this video. 

She didn’t remember the content of the series of videos we watched, but I do. It was about STDs and drugs. It followed the story of a young woman who had an STD and eventually became addicted to drugs. It was one of those bad quality reenactment videos. 

Sanhi: 覚えてる、あれ結構衝撃的だった。何これ？でも何か全然わかんなかった。。。

Kaho Koda: Sanhi said that the video was quite shocking. She didn’t understand it. What did the video want to say?  At age 13, she didn’t know exactly what … was. She knew it was something embarrassing, what adults did naked, but that was it. 

The video didn’t describe how she got the STD in the first place. They just used that fill-in-the-bubble quiz and threw us the word “…” and moved on to the danger of STDs and drug addiction. 

To tell you the truth, because they didn’t explain what … was, my brain didn’t register that STD has something to do with having …… I didn’t even know what the act of … was, just like Sanhi. 

After watching each clip, we had to write a small essay on what we learned. I remember it was difficult to write about it because most of the time I had no idea what was happening. But I must have written something… And that was that. After we handed in our paper, there were no discussions. 

A series of video clips that lectured us on the dangers of STD and drugs… 

If you get STDs, it’s painful. You’ll be destroyed. Your life is over.

That was the message we received. 

Next, I wanted to know about her present. I asked Sanhi about the topic of … amongst her friends. 

She told me that she hates the atmosphere at a get together when men start to ask women about …. The topic comes up when they’re drinking. Someone will ask things like “what position do you like?” to all the women. Most women will giggle and respond, “You’re such a pervert” and avoid answering. Some women answer the question and follow along with the joke. This atmosphere in its entirety – she hates it. 

In this kind of group dynamic, a big group of men and women, … is treated as part of a joke. You’re a pervert if you wanted to talk about …. And it’s not the best environment to talk about it in a mature way. 

Sanhi said that she doesn’t talk about it with her close female friends either.  

Sachi: うちらの年代で、悩んだり、いろいろ経験するのは当たり前だから。。。

Kaho Koda: She said “it’s normal to worry about … and I want to talk about it with my close female friends, but that’s not really the atmosphere amongst the group”.

And that a lot of conversations amongst the group are quite shallow. Nothing deep. Surface level conversations. She said she doesn’t talk about her own family and her friends don’t either.. 

Yeah, I’m going into a bit of a side note here, but I promise it’s relevant. 

Sanhi told me that she doesn’t know much about her friend’s families. Her friend’s parents could be divorced. She doesn’t know. But divorce is still a taboo in Japan. And maybe her friend is hiding that or doesn’t want to get into the details. Maybe there’s a complicated situation. And Sanhi doesn’t know what her friend is going through… Sanhi wants to talk about her own family, but she also doesn’t want to make her friend uncomfortable by talking about her own happy family. She doesn’t want to show off her happiness. 

Modesty is a virtue in Japan. And talking about how happy you are, how you have an amazing family, you can be seen as a show-off.

In the first episode, which was about the Japanese office, I explained how Japan is a collectivist culture and the concept of 協調性 – the state of being harmonious. Following the group harmony. That applies here as well. You don’t want to stand out and show off your happiness. It’s seen as rude and annoying.

Sanhi doesn’t want to show off her happy family to her friend. She also cares about her friend. She’s being considerate, but also modest. 

So Sanhi won’t talk about her own family. And she won’t ask about her friend’s family. So they never talk about family. Period. That’s what she means about surface level conversations. And Sanhi wasn’t the only one who said this. Other Japanese people or expats who made Japanese friends said the same thing. The conversations never get deep. 

But do keep in mind, this is not everyone nor the majority. But these opinions stood out in the interview. 

So imagine, if you can’t discuss ‘family’ with your close friends, how would the topic of ‘…’ even appear in the conversation?

What she said about the topic of ‘…’ and ‘family’, respectively, reminds me of what Terra said about Japanese people. Japanese people are talented at diverting conversation. Sweeping things under the carpet. 

I will note that Sanhi has one friend who she can turn to. They talk openly about … and relationship problems that they are going through. They can be honest with each other. And I think it’s great that she has a safe environment to talk about it.

Sanhi and I never learned to talk about … at school..

But the … ed that Sanhi and I received was more than a decade ago. Times have changed, right? There must be some kind of … ed now. The current … education in Japan from an English teacher’s perspective. That’s next. 

Right after the break. 

Controversial Japan is made possible by you, the listener! At our Human Burrito webshop, we sell t-shirts, hoodies, tote bags, and many other items. All the proceeds go to the cost of this production and the designers that create this show! They’re originally designed by Macie Matthews – she made the cover art for this podcast, and I gotta say, the designs, they are beautiful. Buy and support at shop.humanburrito.com 

ENGLISH TEACHER’S PERSPECTIVE

Kaho Koda: The current … education in Japan… From the western point of view. How is it? 

And we are recording! Can you just say something? 

Lizzie: Hello… Did that work?

Kaho Koda: I spoke with an English teacher in a Japanese middle school and high school. Lizzie. She was born and raised in London and has been teaching English in Japan since 2019. We talked about … education in Japanese schools.

Lizzie: I think I asked them as well. I was like, “Do you get … ed?” And they’re like, “We get biology.” And I’m like, “That’s not the same thing”. Not that my own school’s … ed was great either.. I don’t know. It does seem like they don’t really talk about it at all in school either.  

So I was telling these kids like, I think it’s important for everyone to have someone they can talk to openly about that kind of thing with. It doesn’t need to be your parent but. Cause otherwise you’re in your own head thinking.. You get spiraly of like “This must be really weird” or “Am I normal?” And you just need someone to be like “I do that too” or “I have that feeling too”. 

Kaho Koda: The school that she works at is an international school and one of the classes that she teaches is an English literature class.  

Lizzie: I know there have been problems in the past. A teacher, I don’t know how before me it was but. They did “The Fault in our Stars” with the first years so that’s 13, 14 year olds. So not kids really. They’re teenagers at that point. 

Kaho Koda: For those of you who don’t know the book, “The Fault in Our Stars” by John Green: it’s about a teenage girl who has cancer and her relationship with a boy who she meets at a support group. You might have seen the movie adaptation too. The story explores themes like the meaning of life and death, friendship, and love. 

The problem with this book was not really how the main character processed death, or how heavy the content was, but rather the … scene. 

Lizzie: There is a … scene in it. I can’t remember how explicit it is. I don’t think it was that explicit? I think it’s one of those things where it’s clear what happens… But I don’t think it’s graphic? I think I would remember if it was graphic and I don’t think it was? There was a big uproar from parents about the fact that they were doing this book with a … scene in it.

Kaho Koda: I read the book many years ago as a teenager and I enjoyed it. Like Lizzie, I didn’t remember how the … between the two main characters were portrayed, so I went to the book. For those of you who want to read the actual text, the … scene is at the end of chapter 12. 

In my opinion, from my westernized point of view, it was not explicit at all. The two undress, but right after, the actual … bit is skipped. Fast forward, the main character reflects on her experience as “slow and patient and quiet and neither particularly painful nor particularly ecstatic”. She does mention in the same paragraph that he struggled with his condom. The … scene in question is three pages at most. Also keep in mind this is a young adult novel. 

The parents got mad because they didn’t think it was age appropriate for their 13 year old kids. And this incident happened before Lizzie came to this school. She was told about this matter as a cautionary tale. Don’t use this book. And don’t use a book that contains a … scene. 

So she didn’t. But then, Lizzie learned that her co-English teacher is using “The Perks of Being a Wallflower” by Stephen Chbosky with her 15 year old class.

Lizzie:  “The Perks of Being a Wallflower” is much more graphic and much darker than “That Fault in our Stars”. Like hmmm? 

Kaho Koda: Because Lizzie knew about what happened with “The Fault in Our Stars”, she talked to her colleague about it. And her colleague said she checked the parent reviews on the internet. And it said that it was perfect for the age group, for 15 year olds. But Lizzie pointed out that the parent review is from a western parent’s point of view. Not Japanese parents. So they decided to bring it up to the school and see what they would say. 

Lizzie: We were quite disappointed with the response, which was, they’re still using the book, but any time there’s something that’s related to … , they skip it. We were both a bit like “it would have been better to just can the book entirely. And do a different book”. But I guess they had already ordered it? 

And my co-worker had her hands tied a bit because she can’t be like, “I’m going to defy the school and teach all the … scenes! She can’t do that. So I think she just said to the kids, “We won’t be studying those parts, but obviously if you read them on your own and have questions, please ask me after class.” So she tried to make it like, “we’re not going to study this, but it’s not for-” Cause I think if you make it forbidden, they’re gonna read it anyway. And on top of that, they’re going to absorb all these ideas and not necessarily discuss it with anybody or learn about it in a- They’re gonna form their own opinions. The whole point of studying it is to kind of have a discussion about it and point out things they may not realize on their own.   

Kaho Koda: The school’s response was “Don’t talk about …, skip it”. 

I wondered if the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sport, Science, and Technology in Japan had a guideline for … education at school. So I looked it up. 

According to NHK, the Japan Broadcasting Corporation, it’s stated in the national curriculum standards that the school shall not teach how a woman becomes pregnant. Apparently when the government decided to add a chapter on pregnancy back in 1998, it was deemed inappropriate to mention … intercourse to 13 year olds. For now, there is no mention of intercourse in textbooks or classes. They’ll describe it in biological terms instead. For example, the sperm enters into the egg, and that is the start of life. 

Fast forward to April 2021 – so that’s this year, the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology announced its first set of educational recources for … violence prevention. They published six different age appropriate resources that teachers can use for elementary school students up to university students.  

Okay so I read the various materials that the Ministry shared on their website. I want to share some examples here. 

For example, elementary school and middle school kids learn that they should not show the areas of their body that their bathing suit covers. 

For middle school and high school kids, they cover … violence. They emphasize the message, “It’s always the perpetrator’s fault. Never the victim’s.” 

And for university students, they cover alcoholism and date-rape drugs.   

Is this … education? Maybe it’s part of it. But these are topics that demonstrate the dangers related to …. They tiptoe around what … is. What it means to have …. If they don’t talk about it in one way or another, where do the students turn to? 

Lizzie: I also think if they don’t explain it properly, someone’s going to google it! And as we all know, stuff on the internet is both not true and really quite dodgy. You can get into really weird places if you google that kind of thing.  

Kaho Koda: Lizzie, the English teacher, tells me that she is teaching “The Great Gatsby” in her class right now. 

Lizzie: There’s a bit where one of the character’s like “I met another careless driver” and I’m quite close to the students and I like to teach them slang, and I’m like, “Look, you can’t swear in front of me, but I’m not going to pretend it’s not a thing. If you have any questions, ask me.” So I was like, “Basically, he’s calling him a fuckboi”. And then I had to try and explain that to them. 

And I googled it, not really thinking about it, just looking up, “Japanese word for fuckboi”. And none of them saw that, it was all on my phone. And then all these porn sites came up. And I thought, “This is not what I wanted! Waaaah! I just wanted the translation. I wasn’t looking for that!” 

But I’m like, if a kid googles something and they come across that kind of thing, and then you learn …from that… I’m leading on to like… I’m quite passionate about …education being so really important, so I’m getting distracted from the Japanese issue, cause this is a worldwide- not world wide, but it’s a common problem in lots of different places. 

TAKE AWAY

Terra: Often we are very talented to divert the conversation. Because that’s the way that we speak. We don’t directly address on something. But we always kind of divert it. 

Kaho Koda: The act of sex is not explained to kids at school. Teachers are not allowed to teach it. And eventually, when students grow up, some don’t know how to talk about sex in a mature way.

During the pandemic, many schools cancelled in-person teaching. According to ピッコラーレ, a non-profit organization that supports women with unwanted pregnancies in Japan, their emergency hotline calls from teenagers increased in volume by 60% between March and May of 2020 compared to usual years. Many teens didn’t have the correct information on pregnancy and contraception methods. 

Can Japan keep saying that it’s just not in the culture to talk about …? Or should Japan finally start talking about …?

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Terra Norihiro Terazawa, Sachi Lovatt, Lizzie, and an anonymous individual for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time. 

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Natsumi: You don’t say I love you. You don’t give your mom a hug at the end of the day. Like I feel really awkward doing that. And it’s something that I tried to change at some point in my life. But I think my mom didn’t feel comfortable with it as well when I started to try hugging her and say things. So I kind of stopped… Oh my gosh, have you ever said “Aishiteru” to your family? 

Kaho Koda: Every episode, we unpack controversial opinions about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. 

Today’s controversial statement explores love in the Japanese family. 

From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is / ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Natsumi: Oh my gosh, have you ever said “Aishiteru” to your family? 

Kaho Koda:「愛してる」 It means “I love you”. Natsumi, a Japanese woman, asks me if I’ve ever said “I love you” to my family. In other words, if I’ve verbally expressed my love towards my family. 

Yeah. I always say “I love you” to my parents and give them a hug. I don’t use the phrase 「愛してる」because it’s a heavy phrase. Instead, I use the phrase 「大好きだよ」 – it’s the same translation in English, meaning “I love you” but it’s more casual than 「愛してる」It’s lighter.

Going back to Natsumi’s question.. 

Natsumi: Oh my gosh, have you ever said “Aishiteru” to your family? 

Kaho Koda: I rarely use the phrase 「愛してる」but ya, I say the lighter version 「大好きだよ」and give my parents a big hug. 

Is there reciprocity? As in, do my parents say “I love you” back and hug me?  No… um, not really. it’s complicated… 

Saying “I love you” out loud is such a direct expression of love. And it’s something that the typical Japanese family just won’t do. If you grew up in a western household, you’re probably confused. Don’t worry, I’ll explain.

Today I want to share something very personal. I want to tell you a story about my family. My relationship with my mom, to be exact. So that I can explain what ‘love’ looks like in a Japanese family.

The first time I lived apart from my family was when I started my bachelor’s degree in Montreal, Canada. I was pursuing a theatre degree. Day and night, my focus was on theatre. And my decision to work in the theatre industry created friction within my family. Like any parent who had a kid aspiring to make it in the arts, they were worried. 

Back home in Japan, my Japanese friends were in the midst of 就活, ‘job hunting’. It’s a very important time for third and fourth years in university because it’s the time to sign a job contract before graduation. That’s the Japanese way. Many many graduates have a job lined up before graduation and if you don’t… Well, there is no “if you don’t”. You simply need to have a job lined up. Social pressure. 

As for me… I was not job hunting in my third year.. And my parents were worried. So worried that every phone call, my mom would always say things like:

“When are you going to start looking for a real job?”

“Maybe you should come home. You speak English – that’s a huge asset in Japan!”

I rebelled. I moved to Toronto and I continued working on theatre projects. And eventually, I wrote a play. 

My first original play that I wrote, directed, and produced was called “Decaying Tongue”. And my mom decided to fly in from Japan to see this show staged in Toronto. I was extremely nervous for her to see my play. 

Why? 

Well firstly, my mom is a critic. Decaying Tongue was my first creation. It was my vision, my world, my art…. Which puts me in a very vulnerable place. If this piece sucked, believe me, she would let me know. 

That’s the thing with my mom. She’s honest with me. She’s seen me in high school plays and musicals. There were never words of praise or encouragement. Rather she said, 「自己満でいいんじゃない？」as in, “If you’re satisfied, that’s fine”. 

So yeah, if this play “sucks”, “not good enough”, or “okay”, she’ll simply tell me. 

Secondly… ahhhhh, she was a character in this play. Okay, to be fair, I did not anticipate my mom flying in to see the actual piece when I wrote it. 

This play is semi-autobiographical with elements of fiction. It’s a story about Aya, a Japanese woman, who grew up in both Japan and North America. She struggles with her cultural identity and eventually learns to accept herself. 

There’s a scene where the mother character and main character clearly do not understand each others’ ways of expressing love. There’s a scene on the balcony where the two share a moment looking towards Mount Fuji where they connect and understand each other. And this Mount Fuji scene is an actual moment I shared with my mom. 

I had no idea how my mom was going to respond to all of this. She’s critical, she’s part of the play, and she’s seeing my creation for the first time. 

Will she say I’m not good enough? Will she tell me to start looking for a serious job again? Will she say anything? Hard to say. 

Her reaction after the show surprised me…She was in tears. Not just watery eyes – she was actually sobbing with a tissue in her hand. No words. She kept dabbing tissues into her eyes with a red face. 

She saw this play three times during her stay in Toronto. And every time, she cried. A little less than the time before, but she still needed a tissue.

And as we spent time together during her visit, I noticed something change. 

She stopped asking me what I was doing with my life, if I would ever find a stable job that had a good pay. She stopped saying I needed to buckle down and get serious.

Instead, she started asking what was next. If I wanted to focus on pursuing a career as a writer or a director. If I would ever write a play in Japanese. She asked if I had an idea for my next play… 

When I noticed that change, I knew. Oh, she’s proud of me. She enjoyed my play. And I felt her love. 

But again, there were no words of encouragement from my mom. No “I’m proud of you” or “You’re doing great” or “I love you”. Never words of affirmation. But she saw how serious I was, and she finally understood. So she started asking supportive questions. 

I knew she was being supportive and loving because that’s the Japanese way of showing love and affection. 

Actions. Instead of words. 

Let’s go back to Natsumi’s quote again. You heard this at the beginning of the episode. 

Natsumi: You don’t say I love you. You don’t give your mom a hug at the end of the day. Like I feel really awkward doing that. And it’s something that I tried to change at some point in my life. But I think my mom didn’t feel comfortable with it as well when I started to try hugging her and saying things. So I kind of stopped… Oh my gosh, have you ever said “Aishiteru” to your family? 

Kaho Koda: Today, we’re going to look at how the Japanese family expresses love. Just to note, today’s about the Japanese family. I won’t be going into romantic relationships or friendships. That will be for another time.

I talked to many Japanese individuals for this podcast and the following is what the majority told me. It makes them feel awkward and cringe just thinking about saying “I love you”. They preferred showing love indirectly through actions. 

Of course not everyone feels that way. Some are happy to hug and say “I love you”. But before we go there, let’s focus on Natsumi and many other Japanese individuals who would rather avoid saying “I love you”. 

Right after the break. 

Controversial Japan is made possible by you, the listener! At our Human Burrito webshop, we sell t-shirts, hoodies, tote bags, and many other items. And if you were intrigued by the concept of Decaying Tongue, the full script is available as an e-book! Go to shop.humanburrito.com and you can download the play. All the proceeds on the webshop go to the cost of this production and the designers that create this show. Buy and support at shop.humanburrito.com!

THE MAJORITY’S RESPONSE

Kaho Koda: Okay, let’s look at the majority’s response. The reaction, ‘I feel awkward saying “I love you” to my family’.

Eri is one of many Japanese individuals who feel that way. She’s a Japanese woman who was raised in South Korea, Malaysia and Japan, and so she has an international mindset. 

When I asked how she expresses love towards her family, she separated her family into two categories: her sister and her parents. 

Her sister, like Eri herself, grew up internationally and so, she speaks English. 

Eri: My sister and I, we express it probably through words. And also maybe we hug. And we both agreed that we cannot do this in Japanese. Whenever we talk about emotional things, or whenever we wanna feel closer to our hearts, we do this in English. And then at the very end or in the middle, we’ll laugh about how we’re doing this in English. We’re like “hahaha we’re doing this in English again.” “Yeah, you know it’s a bit difficult to do this in Japanese, right?” “Yeah yeah yeah.” 

Kaho Koda: Why is it weird to do that in Japanese?

Eri: It’s not really in the culture. You don’t say stuff like “I’m proud of you” or “I believe in you” or… It’s just not really a thing in Japan. And also one of the most important things that I have in my life is… I want to have the courage to be vulnerable. Vulnerability is very important in my life. But even the concept itself. Even if someone asks me “What do you think is important?” I cannot answer this in Japanese because we don’t have the same word for it. 

Kaho Koda: Eri is saying that whenever she wants to be vulnerable, talk about her feelings, or display affection, she defaults to English. 

“I’m proud of you” – the sentence does technically exist in Japanese. It would be 「私はあなたを誇りに思う。」But wooof, that’s a very very heavy sentence just like how 「愛してる」- meaning “I love you” is a heavy phrase. 

I imagine a parent talking to a child on his or her deathbed. The point I’m trying to make is… it’s just not common or natural to say the phrase「私はあなたを誇りに思う」, I’m proud of you, in an everyday conversation. Maybe not even on your deathbed… 

Eri and her sister have the ability to speak in English. And English allows them to be direct and vulnerable. Since it’s so normal to say “I love you” in English, why go through all the awkwardness and speak in Japanese? English it is!

Next, she moved onto the other category: her parents. 

Eri: I would write“I love you”.  

Kaho Koda: What about saying “I love you” face to face? 

Eri: Yeah, no not even. Not even「大好き」I don’t think I can say that… I don’t even want to think about it. It’s a bit cringy and also I know they won’t know how to respond. 

And I also know the reaction of.. You know when you try to hug a Japanese person, they give you this slight awkward tap on the back. They don’t wanna be rude and they don’t want the other person to feel uncomfortable so they have this perfect smile, but it’s fake. I know that I’m gonna get this reaction.

Let’s say I say this to my dad like “I love you dad” or 「パパ大好き」something like that. In a more joking way I can imagine but if I say “I love you dad” more so 「愛してる」,he would give me this reaction that he would give if a foreigner tries to hug him. It’s not just for the sake of my own discomfort. But I think my discomfort is shaped around the fact that I’m going to make the other person uncomfortable. And they’re not gonna know how to respond.  

Kaho Koda: Her sister speaks English and has an international mindset like Eri. It doesn’t work the same with her parents because they only interact with each other in Japanese. She doesn’t want to hug her parents. She’ll go as far as writing “I love you” on a birthday card, but that’s it. Nothing more direct than that.

So how does she express love to her parents? 

Eri: Simply listening to them when they want to talk. When they have a bad day, listen to their rants. Maybe helping out with chores. Cooking something for them. Actions. 

It’s hard….This is interesting…. Because there’s so many ways that I show love, for example for my boyfriend, or for my sister. And for my friends. They’re all international with an open mindset. I would write letters. I would literally write what I like about them or what I appreciate about them. I would give them little gifts. I would hug, I would be there for them. I would hold their hand… Oh my god, I can’t really think about how it is with my mom and dad.

Kaho Koda: And Eri was not the only one who gave me a perplexed look when I posed this question about expressing love. Satoshi is another Japanese individual who had a difficult time answering the question. 

Satoshi is a 48 year old Japanese man who has always lived in Japan. And when I asked him the same question, there was a long silence before he started talking. 

Satoshi: もう僕の両親ももう結構な年なので。二人とも老後を。。

Kaho Koda: After a long silence, Satoshi explained that his parents are quite old. And that they are spending their pensioned days together in peace. They live quite nearby, 15 minutes away by bike from where he lives. So he gets to see them a couple times a week. 

Satoshi admires other cultures that get to express love in such a direct way, but that’s not how it is with his own family. Or other families around him. He acknowledges that maybe it’s because he’s never thought about it in the first place. 

For him, showing love is caring about how they’re doing. He’ll ask them questions like, “Are you eating okay?” or “Is everything good?”. 

He added that saying “I love you” is embarrassing for him. 

Satoshi: 変に気にしすぎると気持ち悪いと思うんですよね、両親も。

Kaho Koda: And that showing that he cares makes him a little uncomfortable. “Personally, watching them from a certain distance is the best way – for me anyway” 

He used the phrase 気持ち悪い. It means “Uncomfortable”, “disgusting”, “creepy” depending on the context. Eri, the Japanese woman who differentiated her sister and her parents, used the word “cringe” when she imagined saying “I love you” to her parents.

Cringe. Uncomfortable. Creepy. Disgusting. 

It was interesting to hear Satoshi and Eri, these two Japanese individuals with such different backgrounds, use these terms because my mom says the exact same thing. 

Whenever I say “I love you”, my mom’s response is “you’re being gross”. 

She once told me that saying “I love you” too frequently and out loud, made it seem like I was trying to convince myself that I loved her. So she thinks I’m being gross. It makes her feel uncomfortable.

My play “Decaying Tongue” that my mom flew out to see has a scene that illustrates how my mom and the majority of the Japanese feel about expressing love. 

The Mount Fuji scene. I made this scene the focal point of the play. It’s a monologue by one of the main characters towards the end of the story. 

Let me set the scene.

Aya, played by Sachi Lovatt, has decided to conceal her Japanese identity at this point of the story. She decided to prioritize her western identity because that’s more convenient living in the western world. In this scene, Aya is on a date with Matt. It’s their first date. And as they small talk, Matt asks what her favourite memory is. 

Here is a dramatic reading of the monologue by Sachi Lovatt. 

Sachi Lovatt: Well.. Let’s see. I don’t know if this would count, but Mount Fuji holds a special place in my heart. In any heart of the Japanese, I would say. The beautiful symmetrical mountain covered in snow. When the weather’s nice I can see it from my parent’s condo. Apparently, a condo unit that can see Mount Fuji from it has more value than otherwise. It’s weird how everyone gets excited just to see this mountain. When I was on the 新幹線, the bullet train one time, the train conductor made an announcement saying “after we exit this tunnel, you will see Mount Fuji on the right hand side.” And everyone took out their phones and cameras! As a Japanese person, it’s always been there, but every time you see it, it’s just – Anyways, my mom always hangs laundry on the balcony to dry and she would sometimes spot Mount Fuji in the distance. 

Kaho Koda: Aya is sucked into her memory.

Sachi Lovatt: Right there in the west. She rushes back inside and calls my name.  「彩、富士山！」“Aya, it’s Mount Fuji!” I follow her to the balcony, but there’s only one pair of sandals. So Mom gives me her right foot sandal and we both hop out on one leg. We face Mount Fuji and there she is, the almighty right in front of us. Quite far, we are in Tokyo after all. And Mount Fuji is in Shizuoka. But it’s a crisp spring morning and the outline of the mountain is so clear. It’s just magnificent. We stand there for a while on one leg leaning against each other for balance. Mom is close, right next to me. And so I put my arms around her. She doesn’t say anything, but lets me hug her for a bit. She won’t say “I love you” or hug me back. She just untangles my arms and says, 「買い物行かなきゃ」 “I gotta go do groceries” and hops back inside. 

She got quite upset once when I asked her why she never says “I love you”. She said, “My actions mean nothing to you?” and walked away.  

It’s the action that counts. Love is in the actions. When I do the dishes for her. When she makes me food. When I hold her heavy grocery bags. When I teach her new English words. The unspoken actions are so much stronger than repeating “I love you”. And it’s not just love that’s unspoken. It’s the gratitude. The love for nature. The prayers. The late night drinks with Dad without much conversation. Actions speak louder than words. She knew that all along and I had forgotten…

Kaho Koda: Words are pointless. Take action instead. 

The general consensus is this: Showing direct affection to your family, saying I love you and hugging, all those things make both parties uncomfortable. So don’t do it. Show your love through actions and actually care for them instead. 

You might wonder, why do the Japanese prefer actions instead of verbal ‘I love you’s? One explanation is that there’s the idea of beauty in not saying too much. The silence. Silence is beautiful.

Recently the word “zen” has been floating around. It’s everywhere. In wellness websites, magazines, instagram, daily conversation…. I hear the word ‘zen’ used so casually and frequently amongst my North American peers more so than in Japan. According to the dictionary, “zen aims at enlightenment by direct intuition through meditation”. 

Meditating to find your inner peace. 

The Japanese culture finds virtue in the unspoken. The silence. The atmosphere. What’s left unsaid. There’s beauty there. It’s peaceful. Don’t mask the silence with meaningless words. Do something instead. And let the action speak for itself. 

So imagine a particular someone (i.e. me ) repeatedly saying “I love you” to my mom…

Mom, I love youuuu. Mom! I love you! I love you… I love you mom! 

It’s too much. It’s uncomfortable. Where is the beautiful silence? 

Saying “I love you” in a Japanese family can be uncomfortable. So people like Natsumi, Eri, and Satoshi, avoid that form of expression. They show love through their actions. 

But there are certain Japanese people who want to verbally express their love, despite the discomfort. Like me! And others as well. Let’s look into that next. 

MINORITY’S RESPONSE

Kaho Koda: On the contrary to Japanese people who find it difficult to express love directly and verbally to their families, there are of course other Japanese individuals who are accustomed to it. 

Ayumi is one of them. She is a Japanese woman who studies illustration in London. She usually goes to school in London, but due to the pandemic, she was back with her family in Japan at the time of this interview.  

Ayumi: 私の家族はね、びっくりされるけどする方！

Kaho Koda: When I asked her how she expresses love towards her family, Ayumi said it’s normal for her to say “i love you” and say comments like “You look cute today” to her mom. She even hugs her. She acknowledged that she knows that people around her are quite surprised when they hear that. 

One time, she mentioned it as part of her introduction at one of her Japanese university seminars, knowing that it’s quite unusual. She told her peers that her family hugs and everyone was surprised. It was such a unique detail that her professor remembered her because of it. 

Safe to say that hugging and saying ‘I love you’ with your family makes you unique in Japan. It’s just not that common…

I wondered if this was because Ayumi has lived abroad in the US, Canada, and the UK. She’s seen the western way of displaying affection, so I asked her if that was the reason why she expressed love so directly. 

Ayumi: そうね、今考えれば小さい頃から父親が。。。

Kaho Koda: She said it’s been the norm since her childhood. Her dad says things like “かわいい” meaning “You’re cute” to her mom. She was influenced by her dad who shows affection directly and verbally. So no, she was not influenced by her time living abroad. 

On the contrary to Ayumi, I talked to someone who was influenced by living abroad. 

Misora. She’s a Japanese woman living in Tokyo.

Misora: えっと、それが私がテキサスの留学に行く前と後で全然変わった。。

Kaho Koda: She said that how she shows love towards her family changed drastically after she studied abroad in Texas for a year. Before, they were “ a normal Japanese family”. That means there were never direct expressions of love. No I love you’s or hugs. Her parents never said it and she never said it. Never questioned it. 

But then… she spent a year in Texas where she lived with an American host family. ‘I love you’ was just everywhere. Heading out to school in the morning, her host mother would hug and kiss and say “I love you” to everyone. “I love you” replaced phrases like “take care” and “have a good day”. 

From Misora’s point of view, from someone who never said “I love you” in Japan, it felt like they used the term so lightly. So casually.

And she loved it. She thought it was lovely. So when she moved back to Japan, back to her family, she wanted to continue the “I love you”s and hugs… but in Japanese and to her own family. 

But not too frequently, no. Occasionally. When her family does something nice for her, she makes sure to say “Thank you” and “I love you”. She also hugs her family when they make her very happy. 

How did her family take this change? 

Misora: 最初めっちゃびっくりしてた。え？？ってなってた。

Kaho Koda: Her family was very surprised at first. Especially the hugging. They let her hug them, but it was clear they didn’t really know how to respond. But now, they see her as someone who likes hugs. And they respond positively and accept her verbal love. 

TAKE AWAY

Natsumi: You don’t say I love you. You don’t give your mom a hug at the end of the day. Like I feel really awkward doing that. And it’s something that I tried to change at some point in my life. But I think my mom didn’t feel comfortable with it as well when I started to try hugging her and say things. So I kind of stopped… Oh my gosh, have you ever said “Aishiteru” to your family? 

Kaho Koda: Some Japanese individuals, like Natsumi here, don’t want to make their family uncomfortable by expressing love too directly. That’s considerate. That’s love. 

And others (like Misora and I) disregard that discomfort and express love directly anyway. That’s also love. Maybe because I want my mom to accept and love my newly formed Western ways as well? Maybe?

My mom stayed with us for 5 days in Toronto. And she saw the show 3 times. 

At the end of her trip, my boyfriend and I dropped her off at the airport. As we said our goodbyes at the gate, I hugged her. She hugged me back. 

And then she said “I love you” in English. It was the first time in forever that she said it out loud. It was in English, but still.

To balance out my surprise and happiness, I looked toward my boyfriend and joked “OH MY GOD SHE SAID I LOVE YOU” 

She smiled and I smiled. We hugged some more and then she disappeared past security. 

It’s a stretch to conclude that she’s fine with me saying the frequent “I love you”s. But every time I’m back home and she tells me to come out to the balcony to look at Mount Fuji with her, I know she loves me and that’s more than enough. 

Mom, if you’re listening to this episode, I love you. 大好きだよ。愛してるよ。 I hope I can visit you soon when international travel is possible again. 

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Ayumi Yanagi, Misora Yamaya, Natsumi Funabiki, Satoshi, and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Dramatic reading of Decaying Tongue by Sachi Lovatt and the tunes from Decaying Tongue were created by Dillpreet Saund. 

Our sound designer is Junan and you can listen to more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also check out her music via Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time. 

Listen to the Episode
   

Transcript

INTRO

Misora: 日本に住んでて、この会社で、日本の会社で働きたいんだったら、やっぱ日本人に、の文化に合わせなきゃいけないな、とは思う。

Kaho Koda: If you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom. 

Every episode, we unpack controversial opinions about the Japanese mindset, culture, and custom. Today’s controversial statement is about the Japanese office. From Human Burrito Productions, I’m your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

THE STORY

Kaho Koda: Misora is a Japanese woman in her late twenties. She currently lives in Tokyo and works for a Japanese media company, in the English department. She has Japanese colleagues as well as foreign colleagues. Many Americans, actually. 

Her male colleague, let’s call him Paul, because I never asked for his name and it’ll just be easier for me to tell the story. So, Paul. He’s from the US. 

The work hours set in their department is 10am to 7 pm. Around 6:50pm, (to quote Misora), Paul becomes a little restless. He checks the time frequently, then prepares to turn off his computer, packs up his belongings, and by 7:01, he’s out the door.  

Nothing weird going on here, right? You might think, what am I not getting? 

Here’s what happens after he leaves at 7pm sharp. His fellow colleagues and bosses stay and continue working past their contracted hour. Even if there’s no immediate deadline they have to meet that day, they continue working as long as their bosses and colleagues are there.  

Why?

Misora: そう、だから多分、私がね、仕事が例えば１９時に仕事終わってました、私も定時だから本当は帰っていいわけよ。。

Kaho Koda: Misora elaborates, if she’s finished all of her work by 7pm, theoretically, she can leave. Stress on the ‘theoretically’ here, because she won’t. If her colleagues and bosses are still working on something, she’ll help out. Even if there’s nothing urgent to finish that day, she’ll stay because there’s always something to do. She says it’s better to finish projects earlier than the deadline anyway. She adds, it’s also awkward to leave the office when her boss and colleagues are still working. 

Teamwork and respect towards your boss – that’s what’s happening here, in the Japanese office. I asked Misora if anyone else besides Paul leaves the office at 7pm. She answered no, at least not in her department. Then, I asked her if she’s ever worked with a Japanese colleague who leaves at the time set in the contract. And she answered, no, never. And that if a Japanese person would do what Paul did, everyone would think less of him or her. She says, they shouldn’t, but they would… 

Paul thought of himself as a hardworking employee, but that’s not how his colleagues saw him. He was eventually labeled ‘the lazy guy’ in the office. After all, he leaves the office “early” at 7pm. Not really a team player from his colleagues’ point of view. 

Once, Paul expressed his frustration towards being known as ‘the lazy guy’ in the office. He didn’t understand why he was given that label since he works so hard… so hard. Till 7pm.

Misora realized he didn’t understand the fundamentals of the Japanese workplace. So she explained. How the Japanese mindset works in the office. How his Japanese colleagues see him when he leaves at 7pm. Why he was not seen as a team player.. 

He responded, “that’s not right”. 

And yeah, Misora understood. She sympathized with him. He’s doing nothing wrong. 10am to 7pm, that’s his contract. He’s following what’s written in the contract. 7pm onwards, it’s his private time. Whether it be with family, friends, or by himself, that shouldn’t be the company’s concern. And it’s not his fault that the rest of the office is willing to work additional hours.     

Misora’s been in a similar position as Paul before, in her case, struggling in the American workplace. 

A couple years ago, she was sent to New York to support the opening of Japanese steak restaurants. She worked in a different industry back then. And she had a difficult time working with Americans. 

From a hardworking, “your job comes first” Japanese point of view, she saw first hand how people perceive ‘work’ in the US was very different from Japan. To generalize, and she knows she’s generalizing, but… she saw Americans as people who prioritize their personal lives. Work came second, or even third. That was culture shock for her. The first two months, she was under a lot of stress. 

One time in winter, for example, one of the restaurants’ pipes froze, and as a result, the ceiling fell off into the kitchen. She received the call at around midnight from maintenance and without hesitation, rushed to the restaurant. Once she saw the damage, she called the restaurant’s manager. She explained what had happened at the restaurant and asked for his assistance to sort things out. 

The manager’s response was the following. “I can’t come in. It’s my day off”.  

She was so frustrated. He’s the manager, he’s responsible for this restaurant. But she didn’t argue with him. She worked it out on her own. And she reminded herself: This is how it is in the US. There’s a clear divide between work and personal life. It’s not like Japan where everyone is expected to drop what they’re doing to answer a work emergency. So don’t expect that from this manager.

So yeah, she gets Paul’s “that’s not right” response considering he’s from the US where it’s accepted, encouraged even, to leave at a set time. Work-life balance, right? 

However, she also thinks, if that’s what you insist at this Japanese company, you won’t last long. 

Misora: だからやっぱり郷には郷に従え、っていう言葉が本当、一番。私が海外で仕事する人に対するアドバイス。

Kaho Koda: Misora’s advice towards anyone who is working overseas, away from your country, even if it’s not Japan, is this. 「郷に入っては郷に従え」 It’s a Japanese proverb that’s equivalent to “When in rome, do as the Romans do”. 

In this case, if you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom. Accept it, and move on. Just like what she did, when she worked in the US. 

It comes down to this: Paul thinks it’s not fair to be labeled the lazy guy, since he works hard. On the contrary, Misora believes that if you’re working in a Japanese office, you gotta understand how being called lazy in this situation is inevitable. 

We’re going to investigate these polar opposites today. 

First, let’s dive into the Japanese workplace and look at Misora’s point of view. 

MISORA’S POINT OF VIEW

Kaho Koda: To understand more about Misora’s statement, let’s take a moment to consider the Japanese work environment. The two key concepts I want to focus on right now are: cooperation and respect towards the hierarchy. 

Japan is a prime example of collectivist culture, which means that we prioritize the needs of the community rather than the individual. We find virtue in being considerate of others and being cooperative. Caring for your community. Team work. The word, 「協調性」-  meaning being cooperative and harmonious, is a desirable trait. 

So when you ask for your own wants and needs, you’re seen as a little bit selfish.

And in a collectivist culture like Japan, this 協調性, being harmonious, is a big part of decision making. Our minds are shaped into wanting to belong to the community from a young age. And eventually, we are conditioned to make decisions keeping the community in mind. Sometimes the decision can be based on how the society expects us to choose. 

I have a distinct memory from when I was seven. My family had just moved back to Tokyo from Seattle. In the US, my teachers praised me for my colorful outfits and how adorable I was. I was taught that my uniqueness was something worth celebrating. And so I was this proud kid. 

My bubbly fun personality was not well received in Japan. I was unapologetically loud and that was translated to being inconsiderate of others around me. I was a show off for raising my hand in class when I knew the answer to the teacher’s question. And I was a selfish girl for talking too much about myself. There were so many unspoken rules that everyone knew that I was not aware of.. 

Natsumi shared a similar experience. She’s a Japanese woman in her 20s and she moved around Hong Kong, Bahrain, the U.K, and eventually moved to Japan for the first time at age 10. 

Natsumi: I went to like a – what do you call it? Like a normal Japanese primary school? It was the first time I ever had classes in Japanese. Being surrounded by just Japanese people. The first time I got told off for drinking water in class. And I was like, “That doesn’t make any sense.  I’m thirsty!” And they were just like, “No you can’t do that.” and I was like “Oh.. okay”. And they were like, “It’s a rule, like you’re not supposed to drink or eat in class”. “But I’m thirsty”. And they’re like “You have to wait until the hour’s over”.  

Kaho Koda: Kids can be so blunt, innocent, and evil. So yeah, Natsumi and I learned that we’re supposed to follow the unspoken rules in society, whatever our peers were following. I mean, school is a mini society. We quickly learned that standing out in school is not a great thing. As a survival method, (which is not how we perceived it back then but) as a survival method, both Natsumi and I started following what others were doing. 

I stopped raising my hand in class. I started to copy what my friends were wearing and avoided colorful dresses. I started to conform to what my friends were doing, what Japanese society asked of me. As a kid, you learn these things. You need to conform to survive. It is what it is. 

And we’ll explore the Japanese 協調性 – the state of being harmonious – in a later episode in depth. But for now, let’s go back to Misora and her office. 

If Misora left the office earlier than her boss, what would her colleagues think of her? 

Generally speaking, as a collectivist culture, teamwork and achieving goals as a team are valued more compared to individual wins in Japan. You have to be a team player to succeed in the Japanese office. Just like how Misora and her colleagues stay late to help each other out. 

So picture this, this one guy, Paul leaving the office at 7pm every workday when everyone else stays to work till 8, 9, or even 10pm. Working together, as a team… without Paul. Doesn’t look amazing, does it? 

There’s a downside to collectivist culture. It takes a long time and countless meetings to make decisions as an entity. 

Angela: I think the problem with the bureaucracy is that it’s not productive bureaucracy, I would say.

Kaho Koda: This is… Angela, I’ll name her Angela just because she wanted to stay anonymous. She’s an English teacher from London, working at a Japanese elementary and middle school. She expresses her frustration towards the Japanese not-so-productive bureaucratic ways.  

Angela: It’s a meeting to put the idea on the table. To then, raise the idea up the line with meeting after meeting after meeting. To then realise, “we’re not sure about this” and bring it back down. Then meeting after meeting after meeting. “Oh.. but we have to ask someone higher so it goes up again, and then comes back down. But it doesn’t quite get anywhere. And I have a co-worker who before she was a teacher, she…

Kaho Koda: Angela tells me a story about her co-worker Lisa. Lisa, before she became an English teacher in Japan, used to work in the Energy and Trade industry as a liaison for the Japanese branch. 

One day, Lisa notified the Japanese branch that the operating system was changing across all the offices in the world. 

The conversation went like this. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa said, 

Angela: Here’s the new system, here’s what’s happening. Here’s how it’s going to change.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch said, 

Angela: We have to have a meeting about this with the higher ups. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa said,

Angela: No no no, the system is changing. 

Kaho Koda: And then the Japanese branch said, 

Angela: We’re not sure, what are the details of this change? We have to know all the features.

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: It’s changing anyway.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch.

Angela: We’ll have to talk to our boss about this. We’re not very sure about this aspect. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: It’s got to happen. This international company is changing its global system. This is coming.

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch.

Angela: We’re not entirely sure about some of these points though. We’re going to have another meeting. We’re gonna send this up another level. 

Kaho Koda: Lisa.

Angela: How are you slowing this down so much? We are updating the system we are working on. It is going to change.  

Kaho Koda: Japanese branch. 

Angela: We need to have a meeting about this. 

Kaho Koda: Talk about those meetings that could have been an email. I guess you could call this next level, from the western perspective. In Japan, not so much. As a collectivist culture, you need to consult with everyone: the management, higher-ups and so on. It takes a long time to come up with a decision. That’s what the Japanese branch was doing. And that translated to repetitive not-so-productive meetings from Lisa’s point of view. 

To put it in harsh terms, you’re not expected to be an independent thinker in Japan, especially as someone ‘new’ or ‘young’ in the company. 

And sometimes, even Japanese individuals can’t take this kind of environment. Eri is one of them.

Eri is a Japanese Master’s student, studying applied cultural analysis in Denmark. Eri isn’t her real name by the way, since she wanted to stay anonymous. Before she pursued her Master’s Degree, she looked for jobs in Japan.  

Eri: Once I went to an interview for a small start-up company or something. It was something to do with international topics, so I thought, maybe someone like me, the’d appreciate. 

Kaho Koda: Eri was raised in South Korea, Malaysia and Japan, so she has an international mindset. She thought her outspoken self would be appreciated in this work environment. Butttt….

Eri: So I went into the interview and they told me I asked too many questions. And that I’m too unique and that I’m too opinionated. What they need is someone that can take on the responsibility, what they’re asked for. Someone who can fill in the role in the company, as a plain white… They literally said “White plain piece of paper”. I was really shocked. They also told me to stop talking, or they told me to stop elaborating on certain things because we didn’t ask you the questions yet. And for me it’s important to state why I think about certain things. And they told me I waste their time because I talk too much and they don’t want to know why I did this.  

Kaho Koda: With my limited work experience in Japan and from what I hear through these interviews, I get the impression that experience is not a major requirement when you enter a new company as a newly graduate. 

The metaphor “a white piece of paper” reminds me of new beginnings. A new chapter in life. A blank slate. A fresh young mind that can easily absorb and follow the company culture and by doing so, someone that’ll respect your experienced bosses and tradition of the company. In the beginning you are asked to, (my mistake – not even asked since these are things you should know by the time when you start working) so you are expected to follow orders from your supervisor. 

Your supervisor is your 先輩, an older and experienced person who knows his or her way around the office. Anyone who has been in the company longer than you have, automatically becomes your 先輩. They’ve been working here for a long time and therefore, are wiser. 

My guess is that the international startup that Eri interviewed at was trying to caution Eri: First, listen to your 先輩 and learn the ways of this company. Respect your 先輩. Respect the hierarchy. 

Showing respect can be done in many ways, of course. 

Back to our main story, in Misora’s case, she stays late at work because her boss is also working hard and she wants to help out. There’s also a formal speech you can use when you talk to someone above you, whom you respect. Address the person with the title「先輩」 or 「さん」 at the end of their name. So for example Misoraさん or Misora先輩。

Respecting your 先輩 or boss is so natural in Japan. It’s just so instinctual that I didn’t know how to formulate my questions to Japanese people in their interviews.  

“Do you respect your boss?” 

“How do you show respect towards your boss?”

Sounds like a stupid question. Ewww nope, not gonna ask that. 

I also realized that sometimes when you’re so deep into the cultural norm, you become oblivious to the fact that it’s always there. And you don’t think about it. 

Perhaps when someone not used to this hierarchy, witnesses or experiences it, it becomes more apparent. So instead of asking Japanese people awkwardly phrased questions, I asked expats working in Japan if they experienced or saw the hierarchy in the workplace. 

And most of them, if not all, said yes – they’ve seen some form of hierarchy in their respective workplaces. But they also acknowledged that they only saw snippets of it since they don’t understand the Japanese language to its full extent. Fair enough. Then…. I talked to Patrick. 

Patrick is an English teacher at a Japanese high school. He’s been teaching in Japan for over two years now, and he’s a first generation Thai American born and raised in LA. When I talked to him about the hierarchy in the workplace, he gave me an interesting answer.

Patrick: Even in the limited interactions that I have with some teachers, because some of them might speak English and that’s the only language I can actually communicate in. And I do notice new teachers definitely call me ‘sensei’ at the end…

Kaho Koda: So that would be Patrick 先生. 先生 means teacher. So basically he’s called ‘Patrick teacher.’ from the new teachers. 

Patrick: They’ll ask me how things are done because they’re newer than me. So they still treat me like a jr sr kind of… Older teachers will more likely tell me what to do and the younger teachers are more likely to ask me what should we do. 

Kaho Koda: From the older teacher’s perspective, Patrick is new. He needs to be taught how it’s done at this school. So let’s give him instructions. From the new teacher’s perspective, Patrick has been teaching at this school before they came into the picture. Then he must know how things are done around here. Let’s ask him for his opinion. 

Respecting someone older who has more life experience than you. That could be your parents, your teacher, your 先輩, your boss.. 

Let’s go back to our main story, Paul again. By leaving at 7pm, even if that was his contracted time, Paul didn’t look good. He turned out to be seen as the lazy colleague who didn’t want to help his team or show respect towards his boss. That’s how he was seen in his workplace anyway. 

So Misora’s opinion: if you’re working in a Japanese office as a foreigner, you need to understand that being called ‘lazy’ is inevitable. Because of 協調性, meaning being harmonious and cooperative. And because of the respect to your 先輩 and boss. 

Paul’s response, how unfair that is… Let’s look at that next. Right after the break. 

Controversial Japan is made possible by you, the listener! At our Human Burrito webshop, we sell t-shirts, hoodies, tote bags, and many other items. All the proceeds go to the cost of this production and the designers that create this show! 

They’re originally designed by Macie Matthews – she made the cover art for this podcast, and I gotta say, the designs, they are beautiful. Buy and support at shop.humanburrito.com 

PAUL’S POINT OF VIEW

Kaho Koda: And then there’s Paul’s perspective to consider. In other words, the North American perspective. 

As opposed to the Japanese collectivist culture, the US puts emphasis on the individual and work-life balance more than Japan. 

If you have a western individualistic background, you probably thought one or more of the following: 

1. His contract is binding and it’s wrong to be peer pressured into working late.
2. Work-life balance is important.
3. Mental health is also important.
4. Honor the contract.
5. Who cares if your colleagues think of you as the lazy one.

So as a foreigner working in Japan, what is the right move? I want to try and answer that in this segment. 

And I wanna introduce Cuau. 

Cuau is a filmmaker originally from Mexico. He currently lives in Toronto, Canada, but he lived in Japan for 5 years. Back then, he worked for a Japanese company that made magazines for foreign tourists. All of the managing staff was Japanese, but since it’s a magazine for foreign tourists, he had many expat colleagues as well. And his Japanese colleagues had some kind of experience abroad. They all had a genuine passion to share Japan with the world. 

Cuau knew about the hierarchy in the workplace before entering into the company. He had already lived in Japan for a few years by then, so he knew what to expect. That doesn’t mean it was not going to be challenging.

Cuau: I enjoy more of an independent management style where I get to make my own decisions and you know… I do love working in a team but sometimes it felt too micromanaged at times. I would have to report a lot more. A lot of it I thought was taking away from the main thing that I was supposed to be doing.

Kaho Koda: Cuau explained that it was not as strict as a typical Japanese company because the company knew that they could not expect foreigners to be at the same level as a Japanese employee. But he also acknowledged that ‘consideration’ is not the right word to describe it. He used the word ‘resignation’ as in, it can’t be helped. 

Cuau: The thing is that we were coming from such different places that even though both of us were trying to meet halfway. Where I would be extra careful to report more things than I thought was necessary or ask guidance more than I thought was necessary.  Neither of us were getting what we wanted in a way. So there was a lot of getting used to, I think. 

It took a while for me to be recognized and trusted. It definitely took a little me. Part of that was not just my work, but also my willingness to play by the rules. There were so many brilliant people working for the company, but maybe they were less willing to work the Japanese way. Those people usually never had a smooth (sailing)… They would eventually quit quite quickly. And in all fairness that’s also partly the reason I left…

Kaho Koda: So.. the foreigners that were not willing to understand and follow the Japanese customs ended up quitting the company. Cuau left the company because he was moving to Canada, but he admitted that a part of it was also due to the fact that he didn’t see himself growing like how he wanted to. In the long run, the Japanese management style was not for him. 

I asked Cuau what we’ve been discussing in this episode: As a foreigner, do you need to follow the Japanese custom to succeed in the Japanese work environment? 

Cuau: You have to be creative. The thing is that a lot of westerners tend to be egocentric… A lot of westerners have ideas of individuality and freedom at all costs.. Able to do what I want whenever I want. That clashes a lot with Japanese work culture and mentality. And being completely honest, there was a part of me too, of course. The dissatisfaction of working in Japan. If I had been more conscious, knowing what I know now…

Kaho Koda: Cuau told me about his current job in Canada. He works for a personal development school and over the course of working there, he’s learned how the subconscious mind works. And so how he interprets the situation now has changed compared to when he worked in Japan. 

Cuau: Knowing what I do know now…. There’s always ways to grow and expand and be successful in Japan in any industry. But you have to play by different rules. Not being so self-centered. Being okay with sometimes not getting the credit you wanted. Being less self-centered. If your ego gets hurt easily, you’re gonna have a tough time in Japan. 

The best is always the balance. Working in a team, working as a community, that yields the best results, but also you can’t ignore your own personal needs. Avoiding conflict tends to disregard your own needs… so at the end of the day, it’s somewhere in between.

Kaho Koda: The conversation with Cuau made things clearer. 

“Working in a team yields the best results, but also you can’t ignore your own personal needs” It’s the struggle of ‘community vs. individuality’. A clash is bound to happen when it’s this much of a polar opposite. Balancing those two could be the answer. 

Potentially. Maybe. 

TAKE AWAY

Misora: 日本に住んでて、この会社で、日本の会社で働きたいんだったら、やっぱ日本人に、の文化に合わせなきゃいけないな、とは思う。

Kaho Koda: Misora’s advice: “If you live in Japan, and work in a Japanese company, you need to follow the Japanese custom.”

Misora: 別にそうしろ、とまでは言わないけど、それを理解しておいたほうがいいよ。変にストレス感じないと思うよ、そうした方が生きやすいよ、と思う。

Kaho Koda: Maybe not necessarily follow the custom blindly, Misora backpedals, but understand how your behaviour is perceived here. Even just knowing, makes your life easier. Less wondering, less stress. 

According to the Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare, there were a total of 1,724,328 foreign workers in Japan in 2020. That means that roughly 2.6% of the labor force in Japan are foreign workers. The number has been on the rise every year, even despite the corona crisis. 

Japan is no doubt a homogenous society. In January 2019, it was reported that fo reigners living in Japan exceeded 2% of the entire population for the first time… 2%. That became news. So that means 98% of the population is Japanese. 

98%. Let that sink in.  

CREDITS

Kaho Koda: Controversial Japan is produced by Human Burrito Productions. 

We interviewed Misora Yamaya, Natsumi Funabiki, Patrick Phan, Cuauhtemoc Velazquez , and other anonymous individuals for this episode.

Our sound designer is Junan and you can check out more of her tunes on spotify. Our theme song, ‘Coast to Coast’ is by Mikara and you can also listen to her on Spotify. Artwork by Macie Matthews, you can see more of Macie’s design on her website maciematthews.com

Technical support by Rutger Wink and special thanks to Sophia Gupta and Eelke Verboom.

If you’d like to support our podcast by purchasing our merch – designed by the talented Macie Matthews who also created our podcast cover, visit our webstore: shop.humanburrito.com. We have a lot of cute things like tote bags and t-shirts. 

Check out our website for more info at humanburrito.com and if you’d like to send us a message, you can email us at humanburritoproductions@gmail.com . 

We’ll be back with more controversial opinions about Japan. Till next time. 

Listen to the Trailer
   

Transcript

Kaho Koda: From Human Burrito Productions, this is your host Kaho Koda, and this is ‘Controversial Japan’. 

When you think of Japan, what comes to mind? The Tech stuff, maybe. Samurais. Temples. Modern yet traditional urban landscaping. Conservative. Organized…But what is Japan actually like? 

People who’ve lived in Japan have their own opinions. For example,

Erik: Over the past years, I went from being very interested in Japan, to really liking Japan, to absolutely loathing Japan. So I can’t wait to leave.

Kaho: And on the contrary, opinions like,

Michele: Yeah,  I’m absolutely really happy with the experience I had in Japan.

Kaho: Such opposite opinions right? 

Each episode we focus on one controversial opinion. We’ll be unpacking it from different angles, the Japanese understanding of things and the North American or Western way of interpreting things.

You might be thinking… What gives her the right to talk about Japan, from the Japanese and western perspective? 

I’m Kaho Koda, a Japanese writer and now also a podcast host as I’m talking to you. I grew up in Japan, the US, and Canada – and I’d say it was like, a going back and forth kind of situation. I lived in Japan for 5 years, then in the US for 3 years, then went back to Japan and lived there for 10, then moved to Canada for 8… so you know back and forth, back and forth. You get the idea. I experienced culture shock and went through an adjustment period every time I moved to a new country – even when I moved back to Japan, I experienced it. Moving from a collectivist culture to an individualistic culture can be a bumpy ride. 

Ironically, I continue to learn more about Japan by living in the western world. Living overseas gives me the opportunity to compare Japan to other countries. – Right now I live in the Netherlands where people can be quite blunt.. Which would be a huge taboo in Japan. 

At this point, I’ve lived outside of Japan for more than half of my life. And I do acknowledge that when I interpret a situation, my western point of view comes out so naturally, almost by instinct, and then a few seconds later, my Japanese point of view kicks in. Sometimes when those views are such polar opposites, I get to see how the Japanese mindset can be so different from the Western perspective. 

I want to explore these perspectives with you by listening to controversial opinions about Japan. We’ll talk about things like: feminism, race, tourism, love and affection, and so much more.

Examining my own country through a critical lense – it’s.. You know it’s exciting but also very very scary. It comes with huge responsibility. Of course I have my own opinions. But for this podcast, I’m gonna try and be critical as much as I can. It’s gonna be hard, but I want to try. 

Some things to note here. 

I interviewed many people to understand my country better. 

Japanese people who currently live overseas. Expats who live in Japan. Tourists who’ve visited Japan. Japanese people who have never lived outside of Japan. I tried to diversify who I talked to as much as I could. 

Let’s not forget that each of these people have lived very different lives and are in their own unique situations. And they’re entitled to their own opinions about life in Japan. 

And of course, ultimately, you’re gonna hear great things about Japan. And the not so great things. Ugly truths will come out – It’s inevitable. After all, any country has its own flaws. 

My hope is that by unpacking each controversial opinion, it helps us understand Japan a little bit better. 

I’m Kaho Koda, and Controversial Japan is coming out this summer from Human Burrito Productions.

JUST IN! The latest amazing addition to our cast. We’re so happy to have Daniella Dela Peña on board.

Daniella Dela Peña is a Filipino-Canadian actress based out of Toronto, enrolled in the Theatre and Drama Studies Program to receive an Honours Bachelor in Fine Arts at the University of Toronto Mississauga and an Advanced Diploma from Sheridan College. Trained in modelling, theatre, on-camera, song, and dance (Ballet and Jazz). .
Daniella is represented by Miracle Management and has appeared in campaigns for Michel Germain and Shoppers Drug Mart, be sure to keep an eye out for her in some unreleased music videos. .

Written by Miracle Kerr

So happy to introduce to you our final cast member!! Here is our fifth cast member Jeamoon lee.

“Jaemoon Lee is a South Korean born, American raised and Canadian trained performer. He is an alumni of the Triple Threat program at the Randolph College for the performing arts. Not only a fantastic composer, of whom had multiple original songs featured at the end of his time training with Leslie Arden, Jaemoon is also a phenomenal actor. He has been seen in Kim’s Convenience, stages and screens across Toronto, and in the back kitchen of Anatolia Restaurant at Islington. One of the hardest working performers and most giving friends, Jaemoon Lee is sure to deliver a dedicated and honest performance.”

Written by Robertson Wickins